VW - busted!

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Mad Scientist
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#1392403 23-Sep-2015 07:16

Yes but the Chinese clamp down hard when their people die, OR if the country's image is affected.

When a few carbon dioxides don't add up, a fine here and a bribe there should do it.

Technofreak

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#1392484 23-Sep-2015 09:26

I'd say it's a storm in an egg cup.

How many buyers bought these vehicles solely because of their emission output figures? I'd say fuel economy would rank far higher along with features the car had. I know I don't buy on emission output, I figure most manufacturers are on the same level in that regard, I'm looking at other things. Most people don't even understand the nuances of the emission standards and what various components actually mean.

Some people are up in arms because they've been duped over these figures. Over all I'd say most owners are happy with the cars and they way they perform even if they feel they've been duped.

VW were wrong in what they did and need to be brought to account, but all this up roar will fade into the noise of other world events. VW will continue to build cars.

How many can recall the name Ralph Nader and the infamous Ford Pinto. That car killed many owners when they were involved in rear end accidents. Poor design, some would say negligent design, on Fords part meant these cars burst into flames when hit from the rear. It was big news at the time. Ford are still making cars.

As someone else pointed out all this event has done is highlight the absurdity of the emission rules and how they are measured.

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DeepBlueSky

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#1392516 23-Sep-2015 10:01

It would be interesting if the regulators force the manufacturer to tune the vehicle to their advertised emission levels, or have owners cars failing emission tests I suspect places like California will be strict on this.

If they do enforce this what would happen to the performance of the vehicle, its guarantied they would not perform as well but by how much, it will be interesting.

Fred99

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#1392585 23-Sep-2015 10:46

Technofreak: I'd say it's a storm in an egg cup.

How many buyers bought these vehicles solely because of their emission output figures? I'd say fuel economy would rank far higher along with features the car had. I know I don't buy on emission output, I figure most manufacturers are on the same level in that regard, I'm looking at other things. Most people don't even understand the nuances of the emission standards and what various components actually mean.

Some people are up in arms because they've been duped over these figures. Over all I'd say most owners are happy with the cars and they way they perform even if they feel they've been duped.

VW were wrong in what they did and need to be brought to account, but all this up roar will fade into the noise of other world events. VW will continue to build cars.

How many can recall the name Ralph Nader and the infamous Ford Pinto. That car killed many owners when they were involved in rear end accidents. Poor design, some would say negligent design, on Fords part meant these cars burst into flames when hit from the rear. It was big news at the time. Ford are still making cars.

As someone else pointed out all this event has done is highlight the absurdity of the emission rules and how they are measured.

I suspect that you vastly underestimate how indignant consumers feel when they find out they've been tricked. How much is feigned in the hope of getting financial compensation, how much is genuine doesn't really matter - 'cause they'll be coming at VAG claiming the same thing anyway.
Then there's the problem with being caught tricking governments. Not only is VAG being sued by EPA and CARB, but federal and now at state level in the US, criminal prosecution seems likely.
And now it's not just US regulators, but UK, Korean, Australian, German. It's a storm all right - but it ain't no "teacup" - it's global.

Then there's the probability that when these defective cars are "fixed" (if it's even practically possible - there is some doubt on that) the owners might not be very happy at all with how the cars then perform.

Don't forget the irony of the situation either, as in the US, VW entire marketing thrust on the affected cars was "clean diesel". Audi's marketing slogan in the USA is:
"Truth in Engineering" .

I don't share your optimism for VAG's future. Other corporations have survived scandals, but this scandal is quite unprecedented (EPA has prosecuted in similar circumstances in the past, but that actually makes it worse, including for the reason that what VW have done was then specifically prohibited).

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#1392586 23-Sep-2015 10:49

DeepBlueSky: It would be interesting if the regulators force the manufacturer to tune the vehicle to their advertised emission levels, or have owners cars failing emission tests I suspect places like California will be strict on this.

If they do enforce this what would happen to the performance of the vehicle, its guarantied they would not perform as well but by how much, it will be interesting.

So far (and in over a year working with CARB/EPA, including a recall - which failed), VW haven't been able to retune them to meet emissions.

DeepBlueSky

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#1392649 23-Sep-2015 12:32

Fred99:
DeepBlueSky: It would be interesting if the regulators force the manufacturer to tune the vehicle to their advertised emission levels, or have owners cars failing emission tests I suspect places like California will be strict on this.

If they do enforce this what would happen to the performance of the vehicle, its guarantied they would not perform as well but by how much, it will be interesting.

So far (and in over a year working with CARB/EPA, including a recall - which failed), VW haven't been able to retune them to meet emissions.

So conceivably in some markets owners would now not be able to pass the emission tests (Warrant of Fitness) and have to park their newish VW's in the garage or sell them to people in using the US as an example another state that has lower standards. If there ever was an excuse for a class action it would be that.

Fred99

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#1392665 23-Sep-2015 13:09

DeepBlueSky:
Fred99:
DeepBlueSky: It would be interesting if the regulators force the manufacturer to tune the vehicle to their advertised emission levels, or have owners cars failing emission tests I suspect places like California will be strict on this.

If they do enforce this what would happen to the performance of the vehicle, its guarantied they would not perform as well but by how much, it will be interesting.

So far (and in over a year working with CARB/EPA, including a recall - which failed), VW haven't been able to retune them to meet emissions.

So conceivably in some markets owners would now not be able to pass the emission tests (Warrant of Fitness) and have to park their newish VW's in the garage or sell them to people in using the US as an example another state that has lower standards. If there ever was an excuse for a class action it would be that.

Yes - particularly California, but also I think in Nevada and other states, you've got to take your car to a local DMV approved "smog test" station for testing. That's after 6 years for a petrol car, but only two years for a diesel, then every second year.

When we toured the US years ago now, I bought a VW in California very cheaply because it had Fl plates and there was no possibility it would pass California smog test without spending a fortune on it. When I "bought it", I didn't actually take ownership at all. I gave the seller cash, he signed a declaration that we could use the vehicle indefinitely, then dispose of it any way I liked. The insurance policy was in the owner's name, we were "nominated drivers". A local lawyer we drank margaritas with in a bar in Santa Barbara got this process/advice sorted for free, and referred us to the broker. Stopped by cops twice, the reg papers and declaration shown, response was "ah - ok" and no problems (no tickets either). Also no problems crossing US Canada border a few times.
After 20,000 miles, I sold it again in California, to some Mexicans who took it back across the border. A great big stinking pile of crap to deal with, trying to re-reg/change ownership with DMV Florida when you and the car are in California. I needed paperwork to sell it, I think someone in Florida DMV took pity on us, and did us a favour by putting the change of ownership papers in the post. I'd resigned myself to leaving it in a carpark at LAX.

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pdath

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#1392771 23-Sep-2015 15:15

The Herald has an interesting perspective article.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11517611

Could this be the end of Diesel for light vehicles with electric snipping at its heels?

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jpoc

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#1393172 24-Sep-2015 00:00

Some background.

According to Jalopnik, the Washington Post and Cleantechnica, they are all at it.

Renault, Ford, Volvo, Caterpiller, Honda, Chrysler and General Motors are all reported to have been caught and fined by the EPA.

http://jalopnik.com/how-the-epa-won-1-billion-from-diesel-cheaters-long-be-1732109485

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/09/18/epa-volkswagen-used-defeat-device-to-circumvent-air-pollution-controls/

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/09/22/how-common-are-cheating-epa-test-defeat-devices-in-the-auto-industry/

It's been going on for decades in fuel consumption testing too.

VW are special in that they have been caught late in the product cycle when they have vast numbers of vehicles on the road with this technology.

Will VW survive and continue after this?

The potential fines, product recall costs and lawsuits will be so great that they could send the company into bankruptcy but they will not be driven out of business as that would benefit nobody.

If the business disappeared then who would carry out the product recall and who would provide future support for the tens of millions of VW group vehicles that are on the roads today?

It would be cruelly unfair to the tens of thousands of workers at VW group companies if they were thrown out of their jobs because of the bad actions of a small number of staff and managers.

The most interesting question would appear to be "who can be left in charge of running what remains of the group"?

It is inconceivable that the current top team can survive. If they knew what was going on they must go on grounds of extreme and manifest unsuitability to run anything other than the laundry fund for the local five a side soccer club. If they did not know then exactly the same applies - the only difference being the matter of whether or not they spend the next 20 years in an American jail.

mattwnz

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#1393174 24-Sep-2015 00:22

Hopefully if they do have to pay money from it, that 100% of the money goes back into the environment, as that would be fair IMO.

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#1393197 24-Sep-2015 07:16

mattwnz: Hopefully if they do have to pay money from it, that 100% of the money goes back into the environment, as that would be fair IMO.

If proven.

pdath

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#1393213 24-Sep-2015 08:01

MikeB4:
mattwnz: Hopefully if they do have to pay money from it, that 100% of the money goes back into the environment, as that would be fair IMO.

If proven.

There is nothing to prove. VW have already admitted it.

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#1393217 24-Sep-2015 08:18

For a while i was wondering how it is possible to increase power and reduce fuel consumption (by a lot!) And reduce emissions.

Now i know the emissions bit is false. So it just remains how they reduce fuel consumption. Probably good auto gearing, lean modes at low throttle while keeping the option of max fuel burn at WOT probably

Fred99

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#1393236 24-Sep-2015 09:10

joker97: For a while i was wondering how it is possible to increase power and reduce fuel consumption (by a lot!) And reduce emissions.

Now i know the emissions bit is false. So it just remains how they reduce fuel consumption. Probably good auto gearing, lean modes at low throttle while keeping the option of max fuel burn at WOT probably

Yes. At the most basic level I suspect that they can't simultaneously achieve the performance gains whilst increasing economy (through lean burning - which produces excess NOx), with effective exhaust treatment to catalyse NOx (when running lean) and HCs, particulates etc (when running rich).
There's no doubt modern transmissions help, with multiple ratios and reduced energy loss, to the point that the DSG boxes used by VAG can produce marginally better fuel economy than manual cars.

I'm waiting for hard evidence that this scandal will spread to other makers. Some data seems to be suggesting that VW's dirty diesels may not be worse than any of the other makers, but whether those other makers use the specifically illegal (under US and EU laws) "defeat", or just the normal "cycle beating" which EU regulators have turned a blind eye to for years is another story.
Don't forget that CARB and EPA didn't "discover" the "defeat" mechanism directly. Instead they saw the results and had to put acid on VW until they had no option left but to confess.
It usually takes aftermarket "chip tuners" years to back-engineer/hack in to car ECUs. Detecting what VW did by direct means is obviously very difficult.

dafman

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#1393237 24-Sep-2015 09:16

Technofreak: I'd say it's a storm in an egg cup.

How many buyers bought these vehicles solely because of their emission output figures? I'd say fuel economy would rank far higher along with features the car had. I know I don't buy on emission output, I figure most manufacturers are on the same level in that regard, I'm looking at other things. Most people don't even understand the nuances of the emission standards and what various components actually mean.

Some people are up in arms because they've been duped over these figures. Over all I'd say most owners are happy with the cars and they way they perform even if they feel they've been duped.

VW were wrong in what they did and need to be brought to account, but all this up roar will fade into the noise of other world events. VW will continue to build cars.

How many can recall the name Ralph Nader and the infamous Ford Pinto. That car killed many owners when they were involved in rear end accidents. Poor design, some would say negligent design, on Fords part meant these cars burst into flames when hit from the rear. It was big news at the time. Ford are still making cars.

As someone else pointed out all this event has done is highlight the absurdity of the emission rules and how they are measured.

Yeah, but do you like buying from manufacturers who lie to you about what they are selling? I don't.

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