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Wiggum

1199 posts

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  #1846494 14-Aug-2017 16:28
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

So you propose to tax the guy on 200k at the same rate as the guy on 43k?

 

Why not? the guy earning 200k still pays much more tax. Like GST, we dont make some people pay more!

 

tdgeek:Taxing a nation into prosperity, what are you on? Friday drinks?

 

Well with everyone calling for more taxes, to uplift the benefits etc, I'm just making the point that no nation has ever successfully taxed itself into prosperity. Labour is making that same "old labour" mistake like always, lets increase taxes some more! To fund stuff that there is no money for. There will always be stuff that needs to be funded, therefore its wise to grow the economy etc, which will increase government funds anyway, without raising taxes.

 

tdgeek:You see tax as an evil evil thing that someone invented.

 

Actually its the exact opposite. I like to see my taxes being used to build and grow the economy etc. I just don't like seeing them being thrown into a bottomless pit. When I vote, I tend to use this same way of thinking. What political party is going to bring me, and most New Zealanders, the best return on our contributions over the next few years (taxes)? I'm not interesting in putting my vote/contribution somewhere that will have 0 benefit on me, my family, and the average New Zealander.

 

If labour want to raise taxes on the 1st April 2018 (remove the tax cut that has already been put in place), then thats a bad return on my investment/ and pocket I think. I also believe whole heartily that its a bad investment for the average New Zealander, and most Kiwis will be worse off come the 1st of April.

 

 




Rikkitic
Awrrr
18660 posts

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  #1846501 14-Aug-2017 16:42
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Scandinavian countries are always the favourite example used to counter this. I don't know the exact figures but anecdotally I believe their taxation is fairly high and so is their standard of living. I don't know if they have taxed themselves into prosperity, but they seem to have done something right.

 

If you keep a large pool of people at the bottom and don't offer them a way up, eventually this drags down the whole society. Here is a simple, by-the-numbers example:

 

- rich guy wants to be richer, votes down higher taxes

 

- no money means no help for poor people; deprivation increases and is passed down the generations

 

- poor kid feel desperate, sees no way out, grabs gun and robs rich guy

 

- rich guy dies in pool of blood thinking, if only I hadn't such a selfish prick

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


Wiggum

1199 posts

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  #1846515 14-Aug-2017 16:47
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Rikkitic:

 

Scandinavian countries are always the favourite example used to counter this. I don't know the exact figures but anecdotally I believe their taxation is fairly high and so is their standard of living. I don't know if they have taxed themselves into prosperity, but they seem to have done something right.

 

If you keep a large pool of people at the bottom and don't offer them a way up, eventually this drags down the whole society. Here is a simple, by-the-numbers example:

 

- rich guy wants to be richer, votes down higher taxes

 

- no money means no help for poor people; deprivation increases and is passed down the generations

 

- poor kid feel desperate, sees no way out, grabs gun and robs rich guy

 

- rich guy dies in pool of blood thinking, if only I hadn't such a selfish prick

 

 

*Shrug*

 

You not entitled to somebody elses hard earned money - EVER!




tdgeek
29746 posts

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  #1846527 14-Aug-2017 17:12
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Wiggum:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Scandinavian countries are always the favourite example used to counter this. I don't know the exact figures but anecdotally I believe their taxation is fairly high and so is their standard of living. I don't know if they have taxed themselves into prosperity, but they seem to have done something right.

 

If you keep a large pool of people at the bottom and don't offer them a way up, eventually this drags down the whole society. Here is a simple, by-the-numbers example:

 

- rich guy wants to be richer, votes down higher taxes

 

- no money means no help for poor people; deprivation increases and is passed down the generations

 

- poor kid feel desperate, sees no way out, grabs gun and robs rich guy

 

- rich guy dies in pool of blood thinking, if only I hadn't such a selfish prick

 

 

*Shrug*

 

You not entitled to somebody elses hard earned money - EVER!

 

 

Selfish.

 

Your not entitled to anyone elses hard-earned money either. As in the peoples of NZ's money, as there is no spare, but you want it anyway. Whats do you do when prices go up and that eats into YOUR money, do you cry out REVOLT, REVOLT?


mrfte
83 posts

Master Geek


  #1846926 15-Aug-2017 10:52
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Rikkitic:

 

Scandinavian countries are always the favourite example used to counter this. I don't know the exact figures but anecdotally I believe their taxation is fairly high and so is their standard of living. I don't know if they have taxed themselves into prosperity, but they seem to have done something right.

 

If you keep a large pool of people at the bottom and don't offer them a way up, eventually this drags down the whole society. Here is a simple, by-the-numbers example:

 

- rich guy wants to be richer, votes down higher taxes

 

- no money means no help for poor people; deprivation increases and is passed down the generations

 

- poor kid feel desperate, sees no way out, grabs gun and robs rich guy

 

- rich guy dies in pool of blood thinking, if only I hadn't such a selfish prick

 

 

 

 

1) Scanidavian countries are smack bang in the middle of EU which makes trading very easy. Our closest trading partner AU followed by China which is half a world away.

 

2) Scanidavian countries export high end value added good, not raw goods like NZ.

 

3) Most of their resources are highly skilled and trained and this supports a very high quality manufacturing industry unlike NZ where 40% of school kids don't ever get a qualification.

 

4) Our population is only 4 million and majority are involved in agriculture which is a low skill low income area.

 

I could probably find countless other factors that make the comparison meaningless.. just because a place has the same land area and similar population doesn't translate to ideal geographic location and high skills.


Rikkitic
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  #1846930 15-Aug-2017 10:58
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These are good points but I guess the question they lead to is shouldn't we be doing something (like investing in education and added value production) to improve our prospects? There is no geographic penalty on the export of high value software and technological expertise.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


mrfte
83 posts

Master Geek


  #1846937 15-Aug-2017 11:05
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Rikkitic:

 

These are good points but I guess the question they lead to is shouldn't we be doing something (like investing in education and added value production) to improve our prospects? There is no geographic penalty on the export of high value software and technological expertise.

 

 

 

 

EU went through world war which forced them to evolve. it was do or die. They created a massive carbon footprint to be able to build industries which form their current backbone in terms of technological innovation. Therefore, they can afford to splurge on being green and add a touch of socialism to please the masses nowadays. I have no idea how NZ will manage to catch up with any of them as we don't have the driving factor. 


 
 
 
 

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).
mrfte
83 posts

Master Geek


  #1846941 15-Aug-2017 11:11
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Well, I guess we could attract more skilled people to NZ... that would be a start. But people at present seem to be anti-immigration. Doesn't help that labour, which has traditionally loved throwing money at people, would push people outside of their comfort zone to upskill. Human nature is very basic. We don't do things without any gains in return. Give free gains and it kills the need to better oneself.


sen8or
1789 posts

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  #1846946 15-Aug-2017 11:18
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There was an article in the press this morning about labours plan to implement budgeting and driving lessons into schools, cost of around $50mio (per year I think). I cant find a link to it now, but it included real world budgeting lessons for all students plus driving lessons and payment of 1st attempt at driving tests for all students.

 

Whilst labour will not get my vote, this is a pretty good policy, will have real world benefits for all kids and should be picked up by whomever is in power.

 

Ofcourse, the devil will be in the details and assumes that teachers are competent enough to teach proper budgeting skills and that they have the time to do so, but they have time to teach song, dance and other "essential life skills" so this shouldnt be hard to fit in.......


mrfte
83 posts

Master Geek


  #1846950 15-Aug-2017 11:29
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sen8or:

 

There was an article in the press this morning about labours plan to implement budgeting and driving lessons into schools, cost of around $50mio (per year I think). I cant find a link to it now, but it included real world budgeting lessons for all students plus driving lessons and payment of 1st attempt at driving tests for all students.

 

Whilst labour will not get my vote, this is a pretty good policy, will have real world benefits for all kids and should be picked up by whomever is in power.

 

Ofcourse, the devil will be in the details and assumes that teachers are competent enough to teach proper budgeting skills and that they have the time to do so, but they have time to teach song, dance and other "essential life skills" so this shouldnt be hard to fit in.......

 

 

 

 

I thought so too until I read this comment on the article published in Stuff. Made a lot of sense.

 

-----------------------------

 

 

 

Teaching your kids to drive is actually a good way to spend time with your teenagers (especially when they’re at an age when it’s the last thing most of them want to do).  Getting them to help with the groceries from a young age helps highlight needs/wants, and getting them to save (rather than be given, or put on HP) helps instill a saving/budgeting culture.  Watching the news each night instead of being on their devices helps create a socially aware child.  Playing sports reinforces a team culture, and mixing with people of different ethnicities develops appreciation and empathy for different cultures, languages and religions – ultimately reducing the chances your kid is going to turn out a little $%^* head.  The article doesn’t say how much this policy will cost (surprise), but looks like I’ve just saved the entire amount!

 

 

 

Perhaps having a PM with parental experience would be a good thing! They'd then truly appreciate that it’s the parents responsibility to bring up their child(ren) to be productive members of society with good work ethic and moral/ethical compass.  These activities shouldn't be covered at the cost of the tax payer, but are a parent’s duty.  Removing such responsibilities breeds lazy people who are detached from reality and are increasingly dependent on the state.  This laziness then becomes an inter-generational issue.

If you not prepared to bring up your kids under your own steam, don’t have them. 

 

 


tdgeek
29746 posts

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  #1846960 15-Aug-2017 11:52
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mrfte:

 

sen8or:

 

There was an article in the press this morning about labours plan to implement budgeting and driving lessons into schools, cost of around $50mio (per year I think). I cant find a link to it now, but it included real world budgeting lessons for all students plus driving lessons and payment of 1st attempt at driving tests for all students.

 

Whilst labour will not get my vote, this is a pretty good policy, will have real world benefits for all kids and should be picked up by whomever is in power.

 

Ofcourse, the devil will be in the details and assumes that teachers are competent enough to teach proper budgeting skills and that they have the time to do so, but they have time to teach song, dance and other "essential life skills" so this shouldnt be hard to fit in.......

 

 

 

 

I thought so too until I read this comment on the article published in Stuff. Made a lot of sense.

 

-----------------------------

 

Teaching your kids to drive is actually a good way to spend time with your teenagers (especially when they’re at an age when it’s the last thing most of them want to do).  Getting them to help with the groceries from a young age helps highlight needs/wants, and getting them to save (rather than be given, or put on HP) helps instill a saving/budgeting culture.  Watching the news each night instead of being on their devices helps create a socially aware child.  Playing sports reinforces a team culture, and mixing with people of different ethnicities develops appreciation and empathy for different cultures, languages and religions – ultimately reducing the chances your kid is going to turn out a little $%^* head.  The article doesn’t say how much this policy will cost (surprise), but looks like I’ve just saved the entire amount!

 

 

 

Perhaps having a PM with parental experience would be a good thing! They'd then truly appreciate that it’s the parents responsibility to bring up their child(ren) to be productive members of society with good work ethic and moral/ethical compass.  These activities shouldn't be covered at the cost of the tax payer, but are a parent’s duty.  Removing such responsibilities breeds lazy people who are detached from reality and are increasingly dependent on the state.  This laziness then becomes an inter-generational issue.

If you not prepared to bring up your kids under your own steam, don’t have them. 

 

 

Clearly its not happening. Teachers would get a better result than Mum of Dad as they are "just" Mum and Dad. Teens free time wont be spent with Mum and Dad

 

If you assumed all parents had spare money, spare time, and teens did what they were told all the time, with motivation, then you suggestions would be valid. They would also be valid 50 years ago, and I assume it was like that 50 years ago, the world is a different and busier place. While its fair to comment that she has no parenting experience, your position is pout of date with todays world. Its admirable, and many of us do this, but I'd say its a tough ask for the majority who lack the funds and time


mrfte
83 posts

Master Geek


  #1846979 15-Aug-2017 12:15
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tdgeek:

 

mrfte:

 

sen8or:

 

There was an article in the press this morning about labours plan to implement budgeting and driving lessons into schools, cost of around $50mio (per year I think). I cant find a link to it now, but it included real world budgeting lessons for all students plus driving lessons and payment of 1st attempt at driving tests for all students.

 

Whilst labour will not get my vote, this is a pretty good policy, will have real world benefits for all kids and should be picked up by whomever is in power.

 

Ofcourse, the devil will be in the details and assumes that teachers are competent enough to teach proper budgeting skills and that they have the time to do so, but they have time to teach song, dance and other "essential life skills" so this shouldnt be hard to fit in.......

 

 

 

 

I thought so too until I read this comment on the article published in Stuff. Made a lot of sense.

 

-----------------------------

 

Teaching your kids to drive is actually a good way to spend time with your teenagers (especially when they’re at an age when it’s the last thing most of them want to do).  Getting them to help with the groceries from a young age helps highlight needs/wants, and getting them to save (rather than be given, or put on HP) helps instill a saving/budgeting culture.  Watching the news each night instead of being on their devices helps create a socially aware child.  Playing sports reinforces a team culture, and mixing with people of different ethnicities develops appreciation and empathy for different cultures, languages and religions – ultimately reducing the chances your kid is going to turn out a little $%^* head.  The article doesn’t say how much this policy will cost (surprise), but looks like I’ve just saved the entire amount!

 

 

 

Perhaps having a PM with parental experience would be a good thing! They'd then truly appreciate that it’s the parents responsibility to bring up their child(ren) to be productive members of society with good work ethic and moral/ethical compass.  These activities shouldn't be covered at the cost of the tax payer, but are a parent’s duty.  Removing such responsibilities breeds lazy people who are detached from reality and are increasingly dependent on the state.  This laziness then becomes an inter-generational issue.

If you not prepared to bring up your kids under your own steam, don’t have them. 

 

 

Clearly its not happening. Teachers would get a better result than Mum of Dad as they are "just" Mum and Dad. Teens free time wont be spent with Mum and Dad

 

If you assumed all parents had spare money, spare time, and teens did what they were told all the time, with motivation, then you suggestions would be valid. They would also be valid 50 years ago, and I assume it was like that 50 years ago, the world is a different and busier place. While its fair to comment that she has no parenting experience, your position is pout of date with todays world. Its admirable, and many of us do this, but I'd say its a tough ask for the majority who lack the funds and time

 

 

When I was a teen, I was pretty enthusiastic about wanting to learn to ride and drive. Couple of hours a week shouldn't be impossible for a parent to dedicate to their kid/s. I mean, seriously? Btw, it's not my comment that I quoted if you re-read what I posted. If majority of parents don't have time for their kids as you say, there is something very wrong happening here.


Rikkitic
Awrrr
18660 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

  #1846985 15-Aug-2017 12:24
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mrfte:

 

Teaching your kids to drive is actually a good way to spend time with your teenagers (especially when they’re at an age when it’s the last thing most of them want to do).  Getting them to help with the groceries from a young age helps highlight needs/wants, and getting them to save (rather than be given, or put on HP) helps instill a saving/budgeting culture.  Watching the news each night instead of being on their devices helps create a socially aware child.  Playing sports reinforces a team culture, and mixing with people of different ethnicities develops appreciation and empathy for different cultures, languages and religions – ultimately reducing the chances your kid is going to turn out a little $%^* head.  The article doesn’t say how much this policy will cost (surprise), but looks like I’ve just saved the entire amount!

 

 

 

Perhaps having a PM with parental experience would be a good thing! They'd then truly appreciate that it’s the parents responsibility to bring up their child(ren) to be productive members of society with good work ethic and moral/ethical compass.  These activities shouldn't be covered at the cost of the tax payer, but are a parent’s duty.  Removing such responsibilities breeds lazy people who are detached from reality and are increasingly dependent on the state.  This laziness then becomes an inter-generational issue.

If you not prepared to bring up your kids under your own steam, don’t have them. 

 

 

This is just the right-wing version of politically correct BS. How convenient to simply write off all the kids who happen to be unlucky in their choice of parents. How easy to just sniff at people that they shouldn't have kids. The reality is that they do have kids, the kids are part of this country, and if something isn't done to help them build better lives than their parents did, they will be part of tomorrow's considerable problems. I am really running out of patience with this kind of self-serving crap. If people want to be armed survivalists who only care about themselves, then they should move to a place that welcomes that kind of selfishness. Hopefully that place will never be New Zealand.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


mrfte
83 posts

Master Geek


  #1847000 15-Aug-2017 12:39
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Rikkitic:

 

mrfte:

 

Teaching your kids to drive is actually a good way to spend time with your teenagers (especially when they’re at an age when it’s the last thing most of them want to do).  Getting them to help with the groceries from a young age helps highlight needs/wants, and getting them to save (rather than be given, or put on HP) helps instill a saving/budgeting culture.  Watching the news each night instead of being on their devices helps create a socially aware child.  Playing sports reinforces a team culture, and mixing with people of different ethnicities develops appreciation and empathy for different cultures, languages and religions – ultimately reducing the chances your kid is going to turn out a little $%^* head.  The article doesn’t say how much this policy will cost (surprise), but looks like I’ve just saved the entire amount!

 

 

 

Perhaps having a PM with parental experience would be a good thing! They'd then truly appreciate that it’s the parents responsibility to bring up their child(ren) to be productive members of society with good work ethic and moral/ethical compass.  These activities shouldn't be covered at the cost of the tax payer, but are a parent’s duty.  Removing such responsibilities breeds lazy people who are detached from reality and are increasingly dependent on the state.  This laziness then becomes an inter-generational issue.

If you not prepared to bring up your kids under your own steam, don’t have them. 

 

 

This is just the right-wing version of politically correct BS. How convenient to simply write off all the kids who happen to be unlucky in their choice of parents. How easy to just sniff at people that they shouldn't have kids. The reality is that they do have kids, the kids are part of this country, and if something isn't done to help them build better lives than their parents did, they will be part of tomorrow's considerable problems. I am really running out of patience with this kind of self-serving crap. If people want to be armed survivalists who only care about themselves, then they should move to a place that welcomes that kind of selfishness. Hopefully that place will never be New Zealand.

 

 

 

 

In my first IT job, the first thing my trainer taught me was to work at any issue from the root to the top. Band-aid fixes rarely last and the real world is no bed of roses..


sen8or
1789 posts

Uber Geek


  #1847002 15-Aug-2017 12:43
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tdgeek:

 

mrfte:

 

sen8or:

 

There was an article in the press this morning about labours plan to implement budgeting and driving lessons into schools, cost of around $50mio (per year I think). I cant find a link to it now, but it included real world budgeting lessons for all students plus driving lessons and payment of 1st attempt at driving tests for all students.

 

Whilst labour will not get my vote, this is a pretty good policy, will have real world benefits for all kids and should be picked up by whomever is in power.

 

Ofcourse, the devil will be in the details and assumes that teachers are competent enough to teach proper budgeting skills and that they have the time to do so, but they have time to teach song, dance and other "essential life skills" so this shouldnt be hard to fit in.......

 

 

 

 

I thought so too until I read this comment on the article published in Stuff. Made a lot of sense.

 

-----------------------------

 

Teaching your kids to drive is actually a good way to spend time with your teenagers (especially when they’re at an age when it’s the last thing most of them want to do).  Getting them to help with the groceries from a young age helps highlight needs/wants, and getting them to save (rather than be given, or put on HP) helps instill a saving/budgeting culture.  Watching the news each night instead of being on their devices helps create a socially aware child.  Playing sports reinforces a team culture, and mixing with people of different ethnicities develops appreciation and empathy for different cultures, languages and religions – ultimately reducing the chances your kid is going to turn out a little $%^* head.  The article doesn’t say how much this policy will cost (surprise), but looks like I’ve just saved the entire amount!

 

 

 

Perhaps having a PM with parental experience would be a good thing! They'd then truly appreciate that it’s the parents responsibility to bring up their child(ren) to be productive members of society with good work ethic and moral/ethical compass.  These activities shouldn't be covered at the cost of the tax payer, but are a parent’s duty.  Removing such responsibilities breeds lazy people who are detached from reality and are increasingly dependent on the state.  This laziness then becomes an inter-generational issue.

If you not prepared to bring up your kids under your own steam, don’t have them. 

 

 

Clearly its not happening. Teachers would get a better result than Mum of Dad as they are "just" Mum and Dad. Teens free time wont be spent with Mum and Dad

 

If you assumed all parents had spare money, spare time, and teens did what they were told all the time, with motivation, then you suggestions would be valid. They would also be valid 50 years ago, and I assume it was like that 50 years ago, the world is a different and busier place. While its fair to comment that she has no parenting experience, your position is pout of date with todays world. Its admirable, and many of us do this, but I'd say its a tough ask for the majority who lack the funds and time

 

 

 

 

Whilst I consider myself a safe driver, there is no way in hell I would want to try and teach my children "the right way to drive", 30 odd years of experience on the roads means that there are things you do, see, notice etc that you do purely by habit, repetition or experience but I am not in anyway qualified to teach that. Plus, then they'd also pick up my bad habits....

 

Driving lessons should be structured so that the basics are drilled into the young drivers in an organised, sensible fashion. By all means, young drivers should practice with mum & dad (or mum and mum, dad and dad or whatever makeup the family is), but this should supplement actual lessons.

 

 


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