GCSB Protest March

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119 posts

Master Geek
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#867327 28-Jul-2013 11:50

These interviews discuss how intelligence info can be used.

Sibel Edmonds Blows the Whistle on Government Blackmailing
http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-687-sibel-edmonds-blows-the-whistle-on-government-blackmailing/

Russ Tice Reveals the Truth About NSA Spying
http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-685-russ-tice-reveals-the-truth-about-nsa-spying/

Nicky Hager - "Secret Power, New Zealand’s role in the international spy network" - Book
http://www.nickyhager.info/secret-power-new-zealands-role-in-the-international-spy-network/

One person I meet over 15years ago, looked up their parents (ordinary folk) on the Police computer. What was surprising was a list of known acquaintances (family friends). What chilled the person, was how did these acquaintances appear on the list?

DonGould

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#867360 28-Jul-2013 13:38

Woolly:
One person I meet over 15years ago, looked up their parents (ordinary folk) on the Police computer. What was surprising was a list of known acquaintances (family friends). What chilled the person, was how did these acquaintances appear on the list?

So what's the answer? Not having these systems?

Why do the police have these sorts of systems?

What benefit do they provide our community?

If we should have them, then how should they be used? Who should have access to them and why?

What public education should go hand in hand with them?

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freitasm

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#867364 28-Jul-2013 13:44

The systems are in place for good reason. When investigating a crime it's a good thing to have an overview of relationships.

This is different from the surveillance suggested by the GCSB bill.

DonGould

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#867376 28-Jul-2013 14:08

freitasm: The systems are in place for good reason. When investigating a crime it's a good thing to have an overview of relationships.

This is different from the surveillance suggested by the GCSB bill.

1. Agreed.

2. How so and why?

I don't feel like there's enough discussion in this debate about the benefits of this relationship tracking.

I confess I also don't understand enough about the difference between that and what's proposed in the GCSB bill and I'm interested to hear more about those differences from anyone who cares to share.

Talking of 'caring to share', Wooly's post made me wonder about who can share who actually understands any of this stuff.

Some random developer wrote the software, but can they even talk about what it does, why it's useful or the benefits?

Some random manager signed off on the project, did they really understand what the developer did?

Some random MP signed off on the manager... you see where this is going?

Are the folk who write this stuff to tied up in NDAs that there's no one out there who can actually speak some common sense from a position of authority?

Perhaps more random questions... but to me this is what we should be doing in discussion forums, actually discussing and not just posting random links and hyperthetic situations?

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Woolly

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Master Geek
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#867386 28-Jul-2013 14:32

@freitasm

Do you mean a bit like the film "Minority Report" eg Pre-Crime.

Relationship tracking didn't work too well in Wales. Certain secret societies had members in both the judiciary and the police and their relationships were not made public.

You throw MI5 into the mix who did know the relationships and documented the crimes for future blackmail.

I've heard this a few times, that most trouble for the police for each town comes from 1 to 2 families relations and hangers on.

You can almost predict you'll see a police car outside the same property every Saturday night.

You could try a George Carlin approach: (Please note coarse language)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmJ2snsLxWw

networkn

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#867402 28-Jul-2013 15:19

Very little common sense in this thread at this stage and far too much tin foil hat type nonsense. I'm out.

DonGould

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#867408 28-Jul-2013 16:06

networkn: Very little common sense in this thread at this stage and far too much tin foil hat type nonsense. I'm out.

Interesting.

I see folk coming back with 'tin foil hat' stuff. Yes I agree.

But at the same time I see no one engages what I thought were fairly reasonable questions.

This seems to be the problem in this space. Those doing the spying are not spending enough time on education and open transparency to address the reasonable questions.

On that note, I think I'm out too.

Going back to helping guys get a new roof on a new house in Christchurch where we've got thousands of damaged homes.

Bigger issues to worry about.

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PaulBags

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#867453 28-Jul-2013 17:00

freitasm: The systems are in place for good reason. When investigating a crime it's a good thing to have an overview of relationships.

This is different from the surveillance suggested by the GCSB bill.

I can understand why the police might find that database useful, I don't agree with the practise per se but let's set that aside for now. How do they build that database? And more importantly, are they breaking any laws to do so? I've had the cops call me at 5am to ask me some questions about someone I'd known 1.5-2 years at the time, and we never could figure out how they knew that we knew each other. Heck I don't even know how they knew my landline number, it's not in my name, I give everyone my cell; and I don't even use the landline myself.

Turns out he'd been seeing this girl who lived with her mum, and when she stayed over at his one night the mother called the cops on him.

Woolly

119 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#867462 28-Jul-2013 17:10

@Don

I don't think there are any Black and White answers.

A NZ film called "Spies and Lies" gives a glimpse of the culture.

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of
things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work
and don't have time for all that." George Carlin

All the best.

Woolly

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Master Geek
Inactive user

#867486 28-Jul-2013 18:17

Thanks PaulBags makes sense now. Snooping the telecom records would give a clear indication on who talks to who and how often.

Find a compromised judge and your in business.

This is a line of code to get GPS position from a web device (this one will ask for your permission before sending the location)
navigator.geolocation.getCurrentPosition(showLocation, showError, {enableHighAccuracy:true,maximumAge:600000,timeout:50000});

Here's some footage of the speakers in Auckland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmPLNfk3-hQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhlPqaLCvIE

Just for laughs (unrelated)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUiwTubYu0

turnin

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Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#867501 28-Jul-2013 19:05

I find it a little odd that when one voices concern about slippery slopes that might lead to issues with freedom and democracy it's just a few steps away from claims about tin foil hats and conspiracy theories. There is a hell of a lot of this lately, even John Key is calling people conspiracy theorists as though a Government could never be involved in a conspiracy and anyone who should suggest such a thing must therefore also believe in chemtrails and moon landing hoax's.
What's wrong with the world when those that have a differing opinion to each other can't have a reasonable debate without labelling the other party insane.

Woolly

119 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#867570 28-Jul-2013 22:59

Cognitive dissonance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

A recent example of this is conspiracy theorists claiming USG collects all digital data many years ago.

Now Snowden has confirmed the conspiracy.

This is way off topic my apologies.

The idea of targeting an individual with audio is real. Eg. Minority Report where the agent is targeted by ads walking thru a mall.

Iran-Contra. I took it as a one off. Until you start looking into it.

Please do your own research.

Woolly

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Master Geek
Inactive user

#867572 28-Jul-2013 23:09

@Don

This film may give some answers?

Accepted
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384793/

Klipspringer

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#867762 29-Jul-2013 11:59

JimmyH:
Klipspringer:
MattEast:
Would you be happy for the police to swing by at the drop of a hat and have a
look through your house, check the draws, make sure the car is warranted etc
etc.

Would not be too bad actually. Im a law abiding citizen.

If the cops did that they would rid the neighborhood of all the troublesome
characters.

I'm starting to see a theme in your responses. In this thread and a couple of
others you have posted view the include being:

- In favour of Police being to warrently enter and search properties if they
feel like it
- In favour of jailing someone indefinitely is they exercise their right to
silence
- In favour of legalising massive extension of reaching surveillance of the
general law-abiding citizenry, without judicial oversight (as you have
"nothing to hide"), and
- In support of mandatory government filtering of legal material you don't
approve of on the internet, so that other people can't see it.

There are already countries that have such regimes in place now. If you really
consider it would make such a difference to your families quality of life, have
you considered moving to one of them? That way you would be happy without
taking our civil liberties away? Dubai, Iran and China might make suitable
destinations for you to consider.

A theme to my responses? Yes many are “tounge in cheek”

But on the other hand anything that can help at putting criminals where they belong (where currently nobody is able to do anything about Tami Iti except sit back, and wait and hope!). IMO anything that can help at making this place a little bit better and safer for my kids will get my vote.

As I have said previously.

Klipspringer: Look at the positives about these law
changes.

Tami Iti and he cronies would be in jail where they belong.
See New
Zealand Raids

What are the alternatives? See where the above is going? What part of IRA-style war on New Zealand are u not understanding? TO me that sounds a little bit more serious than my facebook photos, and call records, and bank statements being made available to government. As I said I have nothing to hide.

I never ever implied that this kind of so called “spying” was a good thing. I just don’t see any alternatives. Maybe you can offer some good alternatives and how we can legally put this clown and his cronies away?

We can’t spy on the guy? That sounds absurd. Its “privacy” gone mad. What right does he have to privacy if he is/was planning this against NZ?

Its not that I agree that this “spying is OK” Its that I think the consequences of not doing it just outweighs the negatives about my so called right to 100% privacy (which I don’t really have now anyway)

Dratsab

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#867825 29-Jul-2013 13:35

DonGould:Some random developer wrote the software, but can they even talk about what it does, why it's useful or the benefits?

Some random manager signed off on the project, did they really understand what the developer did?

Some random MP signed off on the manager... you see where this is going?

Are the folk who write this stuff to tied up in NDAs that there's no one out there who can actually speak some common sense from a position of authority?

@DonG: Let's remove the word "random" from this process. Without assuming developers (plural) or their software are in-house, they will be carefully selected after having undergone extensive background checks, psychometric testing etc. Same with project managers, again plural. Ministers have specific portfolios. Understanding is a different story, my guess would be (respectively): excellent, very good, average.

Regarding your last question - try applying some of the common sense you mention: the answer should be very apparent.

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