Sony HD Ready TV's - Certified HD Freeview Impossible without HDMI?

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Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

# 38097 24-Jul-2009 17:14

Anyone with a Sony "HD Ready" TV (possibly all the 720p and 1080i CRT models?) that does not have an HDMI interface who is interested in collectively discussing this with Sony please message me. Please outline your set model, if its still in warranty and what promotional documentation you might have to support some serious discussions with Sony.

For example I am aware of a Sony promotional definition (Defined in Pulse magazine) about HD ready Sony TV's:

"How does it benefit me? It’s a future proof TV - you can enjoy high quality HD programs when you connect an optional HD STB"

It doesn't seem very HD future proofed when the Freeview standard says Freeview certified appliances can only receive HD over HDMI (and not component)..... a number of these HD Ready TV's do not have HDMI ....so how can one enjoy "high quality HD programs" from Freeview in these HD Ready TV's????

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5 posts

Wannabe Geek

# 238772 24-Jul-2009 22:01

Why get a Freeview box? Why not go for a non Freeview certified HD STB. There are plenty that do 1080i or 720p over component. I don't think Sony were being misleading in the Pulse magazine. I think that the Freeview specs were probably set sometime after this went to print.

Oblivian

3411 posts

Uber Geek

# 238778 24-Jul-2009 22:35

I think you will find Sony will chuckle and say they have done nothing wrong. As its likely basing statements on what freeview have set as the standard in NZ.

In "the industry" as sky put it after questioning how their mysky with its only 3-4 real hidef channels calls it that responded saying, "HD" means anything 576i or above in australasia. Not 720/1080 as most media downloaders perceive it means. Which is all that is required by certification.

Since the formal adoption of Digital Video Broadcasting's (DVB) widescreen HDTV transmission modes in the early 2000s the 525-line NTSC (and PAL-M) systems as well as the European 625-line PAL and SECAM systems are now regarded as "standard definition" television systems. In Australia, the 625-line digital progressive system (with 576 active lines) is officially recognized as high definition

They are considering SD as being up to 480lines. Which our normal UHF is.

You will also find many of the boxes labelled 'HD ready' are sometimes only 720p panels that dont mind adjusting the 1080p/i signals.

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

# 238784 24-Jul-2009 23:05

Thanks for the comments, I appreciate those.

Why not get a non certified box? A number of threads here attest to the quality of those, that is why not!

Sony didn't chuckle, they offered an alternative box at 40% off RRP. I think they should do better.

What I should have also said was the manual specifies 1080i and 1080 lines, yet Sony advised the retailer the box only did 625 lines. Oblivian's comments might explain why its 625 lines - was it designed for the Australian market - and sent our way too? Nowhere does it say the image is downscaled. A benefit of pdf manuals is they can easily be searched! It does specify 1080i about five times in the manual. (1080i means 1080 lines, the i means in simple terms that every second line is displayed at any point in time, none the less there need to be 1080 lines to be 1080i)

So I take the point about HD definitions however suggest given Sony's definitions in the manual and their promotional material the Australian definition is less relevant than what the TV is specified to do. I think Sony should make the set do what Sony promoted the set to do. I believe Sony have the technology to do it, they promoted it, they should deliver it. I don't think a consumer should pay another 60% to get what they should have got in the beginning, does anyone think a consumer should effectively pay twice??

Oblivian

3411 posts

Uber Geek

# 238788 24-Jul-2009 23:28

I'm somewhat confused here and you may need to explain your query a little further.. you HAVE a "HD ready" TV and a STB but as its not outputting 1080i are not happy?

My Sharp is "HD Ready" (but has HDMI) its still only a 1mp 1360x720 panel. But that is how its branded as it is not considered FullHD.. (which they consider a 2mp panel of 1920x1080). It is simply compatible with fixed FullHD content signals (Blu-ray for example) it happily takes 1080i, just dumps it back down.

And with STBs.. theres pretty much no certified ones that scale to the signal. They all upscale to a fixed rate. Even tho 1-2 are 720p, 3 is 1080i and the others are all 576i or less theres a pile of bollocking going on between signal and TV.

If you have a similar 1mp tv, You'll find it mentioned quite a bit around the place

HD Ready - HDTV set capable of accepting HD signals (may not be able to display at full resolution 1920x1080)
Full HD - HDTV set capable of accepting HD signals and able to display full resolution at 1920x1080
720p HDTV - another name for HD Ready HDTV
1080p HDTV - another name for Full HD HDTV

Oh.. and check this out under "what is HD" at freeview.. they consider 576i SD also :(.
http://www.freeviewnz.tv/setup_support/questions_answers/category/about_digital_tv

sbiddle

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# 238802 25-Jul-2009 01:04

You're stuck in an unfortunate situation being an early adopter.

Your TV is HD ready - you can't convince anybody otherwise because it does meet the minimum requirements for a HD set which is 720 lines of vertical resolution.

What exactly are you expecting Sony to do for you?

The problem you face is that content owners have forced DRM onto broadcasters who have had to impliment DRM to keep the content owners happy. If you have a Sky HDi box you can view a lot of Sky's HD content via component however some requires a HDMI connection.

I do feel sorry for you because you are stuck in an unfortunate situation but I don't think Sony have mislead anybody - your TV is a HDTV and can view HDTV content via BluRay, a PC or xbox360 or PS3 along with non certified Freeview boxes and some of Sky's HD content. It just can't view Freeview|HD content from a certified STB.

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

# 238815 25-Jul-2009 07:51

Oblivian: I'm somewhat confused here and you may need to explain your query a little further.. you HAVE a "HD ready" TV and a STB but as its not outputting 1080i are not happy?

Yes I have said TV, and I had a non certified STB that was sent back. Using test patterns one can show the set does not display 1080i. (Test patterns readily available on the net) It takes 1080i component input (Not compliant with FreeView) but only displays a downscaled 1080i, maybe cut down to 625 lines. If Sony said the TV did that the image was cut down from 1080i to 625 lines then that would be fine - I wouldn't have bought it! Sony did not say that anywhere.

To add insult to injury the TV also overscans, (5% each edge) which means only about 81% of the full (already lowered definition) image is actually seen! That is not mentioned anywhere either. That would also be fine if it was clearly specified, again I wouldn't have bought it, it was not specified. As Sony defined the TV as 1080i without further clarification then 1920x1080 pixels in my expectation should be seen by the viewer. Displaying about half of these is in my view misleading. What does the reader think?

My Sharp is "HD Ready" (but has HDMI) its still only a 1mp 1360x720 panel. But that is how its branded as it is not considered FullHD.. (which they consider a 2mp panel of 1920x1080). It is simply compatible with fixed FullHD content signals (Blu-ray for example) it happily takes 1080i, just dumps it back down.

If Sharp told you all this then that would be fine. Did they? To be clear I am not suggesting the TV should display 1080p, there wass no suggestion of that. 1080i is less than 1080p, it is still a form of HD.

And with STBs.. theres pretty much no certified ones that scale to the signal. They all upscale to a fixed rate. Even tho 1-2 are 720p, 3 is 1080i and the others are all 576i or less theres a pile of bollocking going on between signal and TV.

Using certified quality Freeview boxes as Freeview would intend us all to use would mean one could not input any HD (By that here I mean video > 576i) into this TV, (1080i only available from HDMI - FreeView Spec) even if one could input certified Freeview, say TV3 @ 1080i the TV watcher will see a downscaled and overscanned image = twice cut down HD ~ SD!

Given these things it is hard to see what future proofing is present in this TV.

Oh.. and check this out under "what is HD" at freeview.. they consider 576i SD also :(.

http://www.freeviewnz.tv/setup_support/questions_answers/category/about_digital_tv

"HD Ready" is defined by varying sources to mean varying things. In this case Sony kindly defined what they mean't, I am referring to Sony's definition which seems the most relevant one to use for this TV.

The Freeview definition of 1080i is in accord with what I described. It would be nice to be able to see it in a TV that is future proofed and still covered by a warranty!

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

# 238864 25-Jul-2009 10:49

Your TV is HD ready - you can't convince anybody otherwise because it does meet the minimum requirements for a HD set which is 720 lines of vertical resolution.

Where does this definition come from? Sony's definition is not expressed in those terms. Why should this definition override Sony's advertised performance offering?

Regardless lets consider your definition. Excellent test patterns are available from http://www.w6rz.net/. Using the Vertical Resolution Pattern "Alternating black/white 1, 2, 3 and 4 pixel strips 1280x720" one cannot see the 1 pixel wide lines distinctly. Further as there is 5% top and bottom overscan only 90% of 720 horizontal lines are displayed = 648 lines actually seen. (Using 100 IRE White Crosshatch with Circles 1920x1080 donwscaled to 720)

Wait a minute, Sony have already clarified the TV only does 625 lines.

Even adopting your definition the TV Fails (at least two ways) to meet this standard also! Now what do you think?

The problem you face is that content owners have forced DRM onto broadcasters who have had to impliment DRM to keep the content owners happy. If you have a Sky HDi box you can view a lot of Sky's HD content via component however some requires a HDMI connection.

I do feel sorry for you because you are stuck in an unfortunate situation but I don't think Sony have mislead anybody - your TV is a HDTV and can view HDTV content via BluRay, a PC or xbox360 or PS3 along with non certified Freeview boxes and some of Sky's HD content. It just can't view Freeview|HD content from a certified STB.

Ahh funny you should mention Bluray! Check out Sony's Website for their current player offerings BDPS350 and BDPS550. http://www.sony.co.nz/products/product/blu-ray-and-dvd/blu-ray-player/bdps350.jsp and http://www.sony.co.nz/products/product/blu-ray-and-dvd/blu-ray-player/bdps550.jsp

Note that the specification for both say "Blu-ray Output 480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via component; 576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via HDMI" Now read the respective manuals for the fine print. On about page 60 the manuals say 1080p is not available over component. 1080i is. The even finer print clarifes, exceptions exist when protection is implemented in discs the image is cut down to SD. Sorry poor consumer. Tough. You should have read the fine print, been an expert and spent more money and bought another newer HDMI TV!

Now what about Image Constraint Token's (ICT) or Digital Only Token's (DOT)? Reference: http://www.myhomeautomation.com.au/news/how-things-work-blu-ray-technology/ Did you know about Image Constraint Token's (ICT) or Digital Only Token's (DOT)? I can not find any reference in Sony's promotional material explaining that ICT has relevance to my viewing experience of their product. I think Bluray purchasers should be informed about product performance limitations that may exist now and may increasingly exist in the future. Don't you? Which video do you hire that will play without cheating you and downscaling on you?

On the 7th July 2009 Senior Sony management were advised about the incorrect and incomplete Bluray information on the Sony website. On the 20th they acknoweledged some of the information was not correct. How long does it take a Multinational to fix their website? How wrong or imcomplete does information have to be before it become misleading? Would you be prepared to re-consider if Sony has been misleading?

One observation relevant here is that Sony was a part of the Multi-Corporate team that developed HDMI. (Refer Wikipedia) That means Sony had a hand in doing their best to give their non HDMI technology early obsolence.

Thank you Sony, that's really cool that I invested in your products to be rewarded this way. And guess who'd generate more sales from a generally accepting public if that happened?

So yes I can "view" HD content via bluray, I just can't see it in full HD, but why would I want to actually see it in full HD? As long as my TV receives it and does not smoke why would I buy a 1080i HD ready TV if not to see 1080i HD??? What benefit does the set offer over an existing SD set???

What exactly are you expecting Sony to do for you?

Make the TV do what they said it would do. Simple. Also promptly fix incorrect promotional material - with urgency.

A CRT has characteristics that are superior to many LCD displays, for example colour quality, level of Whites, longevity of whites, service life, viewing angles etc.

Sony have delievered CRT sets reviewed to have excellent and full 1080i (even upto 1400 lines!) - and with HDMI. (See reviews on net on KD32XS945 and KD34XBR960) They even made 1080p CRT tubes. (e.g. BVM-A32E1WU) They have also delivered Display equipment where the overscanning can be turned off.

Sony made the promise, they have the technology, they should deliver.

That's what I expect.

Other owners of similar TV's in this situation may well expect the same.

(Similar models include KV-HR36M61 KVHR36M61 KV-HR32M61 KVHR32M61 KV-DA32M36 KVDA32M36 KV-HX32M31 KVHX32M31 )

Oblivian

3411 posts

Uber Geek

# 238874 25-Jul-2009 11:20

Hinko:
Your TV is HD ready - you can't convince anybody otherwise because it does meet the minimum requirements for a HD set which is 720 lines of vertical resolution.

Where does this definition come from? Sony's definition is not expressed in those terms. Why should this definition override Sony's advertised performance offering?

Where? Sony no less.. under H

http://www.sony-asia.com/support/ShowGlossary.action?site=hp_en_AP_i&sectiontype=glossary

HDTV

High Definition Television. Generic term used for TV technology producing images in a much higher quality picture than standard definition TVs. An HDTV set displays 720 up to 1,080 visible lines.

HDTV
High Definition Television 1125, 1080, 1035 line interlaced and 720 and 1080 line progressive formats in a 16:aspect ratio.

Talkiet

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# 238875 25-Jul-2009 11:27

Hinko: [snip] What does the reader think? [snip]

THIS reader thinks you're smoking too much crack.

- Your TV is HD ready.
- You're pissed because you didn't know about / didn't see the HDMI revolution coming.
- You want someone else to take responsibility for your early adoption error.

Move along.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

netd

19 posts

Geek

# 238885 25-Jul-2009 13:41

Out of interest, when did you get this TV? I found a news article all the way back in 2006 stating that there were plans to make HDMI (and HDCP) a requirement in the HD Ready standard, which it is currently. So knowing exactly when you got this TV would help.

netd

19 posts

Geek

# 238888 25-Jul-2009 13:54

A bit of further digging has the official requirements to be labelled HD Ready (from 2005)
http://www.eicta.org/web/news/telecharger.php?iddoc=242
They do *clearly* state that to have the HD Ready label (your TV actually has this label somewhere right?), a TV must have both HDMI & Component.

Nety

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# 238906 25-Jul-2009 15:47

As asked by netd when did you get this TV?

I agree that that there was/still is a lot of miss leading info on HD although it is getting better now.

I don't think you can pick Sony out as being any worse then any of the other manufacturers they have all done similar things during the move to HD TV's although it does now seem to be fairly safe to consider a HD ready TV to be able to do 720p/1080i (note 1080i can still only use 720 lines) and a Full HD TV is able to do 1080p.

It depends on how old the TV is as to how good the 40% off a replacement TV offer is.

By the way just remembered if you think Sony are being off with the overscan meaning that you didn?t really get 720 horizontal lines how about older 720p plasma TV out there. Most plasmas that were labelled 720p were in fact 1024x768 rather then 1280?720.

My gut feel is that if your TV is 3 or more years old the 40% offer is not bad and gives you the chance to jump straight to a Full HD TV without hurting the bank too much.

Media centre PC - Case Silverstone LC16M with 2 X 80mm AcoustiFan DustPROOF, MOBO Gigabyte MA785GT-UD3H, CPU AMD X2 240 under volted, RAM 4 Gig DDR3 1033, HDD 120Gig System/512Gig data, Tuners 2 X Hauppauge HVR-3000, 1 X HVR-2200, Video Palit GT 220, Sound Realtek 886A HD (onboard), Optical LiteOn DH-401S Blue-ray using TotalMedia Theatre Power Corsair VX Series, 450W ATX PSU OS Windows 7 x64

fahrenheit

752 posts

Ultimate Geek

# 238907 25-Jul-2009 15:50

Sony's HD CRTs were made and marketed long before HDCP was even a glint in the eye of content producers and manufacturers.

Your understanding of the term 'HD Ready' differs today from its original intention. As has already been said, your set was designed to accept an HD signal from the devices that were applicable at the time. That time is long gone.

HD Ready is a marketing term (and its European at that). Marketing isn't accurate or timeless and sometimes not even the truth.

Just wait and see how relevant the term 'Full HD' is when the 2K res TVs finally emerge.

BTW, I'm a Sony KV-HR36M61 owner.

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

# 238965 25-Jul-2009 23:06

- You're pissed because you didn't know about / didn't see the HDMI revolution coming.

Not really, HDMI offers 1080p just as well as Component can. I am concerned that Sony, a generally trusted brand should break that trust by taking measures to accelerate the demise of the useful life of the TV through measures such as ICT that cut image quality down over component. That was not promoted to consumers however Sony was busy developing these same technologies at or even before this set was marketed. Even now these measures are incorrectly promoted. FYI 09-12-2002 the HDMI 1.0 standard was released. HDCP was approved for use in 2004 in the US. In contrast the TV set was sold by the retailer late 2006.

I am concerned that both Sony and the retailer has not offered to put things right when putting things right does count and is a fundamental for enduring marketplace reputations.

- You want someone else to take responsibility for your early adoption error.

Yes, it was not I who created or perpetuated misleading consumer information or expectation.

There is also another issue that interests me, the green aspects. These tube TV's that were made should be used for their working life, and not dumped into landfills prematurely because of premature obsolence designed by their manufacturers. Tubes are known to work for over 60 years. In 60 years time we may well be much better at recycling these.

A bit of further digging has the official requirements to be labelled HD Ready (from 2005)
http://www.eicta.org/web/news/telecharger.php?iddoc=242
They do *clearly* state that to have the HD Ready label (your TV actually has this label somewhere right?), a TV must have both HDMI & Component.

This TV does not bear the referenced logo nor did the Sony Website for this model TV however it did include the phrase "HD Ready", as did the Sony Pulse magazine of the day, which also included its own definition. The manual has zillions of HD references contained therein, there is a HD sync on the back of the TV and the remote has a HD/DVD button, not to mention the HD modes 1 and 2 seen on the display. The manual includes a table referencing 1080 lines.

Sony promised future proofing, to be future proofed for any reasonable period the TV needs HDMI.

Interestingly I know the Samsung WS32Z30HE has "HDTV 1080i Ready" on the front of it, it also does not have a HDMI input, perhaps it should?

fahrenheit: Sony's HD CRTs were made and marketed long before HDCP was even a glint in the eye of content producers and manufacturers.

Really? Can you provide some references and dates to support your proposition please? When do you think these TV's came out? When do you think HDCP came out? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection says it was approved in the US 2004, which is much the same time these sets came out. Perhaps fahrenheit might be interested to read the reference kindly provided above by netd, which does not seem to support your proposition. Do you work for a TV industry player?

Interestingly the Sony VPL-HS3 projector manual was completed 30-07-2003, subsequently marketed in New Zealand as HD Ready and included an HDMI interface.

Your understanding of the term 'HD Ready' differs today from its original intention. As has already been said, your set was designed to accept an HD signal from the devices that were applicable at the time. That time is long gone.

My understanding comes from the Sony promotional material of the day that was applicable around the time. That is the basis the set was marketed in New Zealand. The definitions of the time are relevant to this TV, not whatever is promoted now. If Sony promised future proofing then they needed to deliver it! It was Sony's promise. Future applies...to the future, not at the time! The set is still in warranty, the time has not "long gone" at all.

HD Ready is a marketing term (and its European at that). Marketing isn't accurate or timeless and sometimes not even the truth.

Ain't that the truth! Does the European reference apply in New Zealand to use of the phrase "HD Ready"?

BTW, I'm a Sony KV-HR36M61 owner.

Cool. Same issues apply, do they not?

Nety: I don't think you can pick Sony out as being any worse then any of the other manufacturers they have all done similar things during the move to HD TV's

I agree, its just that I have a Sony TV so I am limiting my concern to my area of interest, the principles may apply to other manufacturers and the same issues may be taken up with them by similarly effected people should be in a similar position and so choose. Are you suggesting that if they all behaved badly as a group then they should be excused bad behaviour?

although it does now seem to be fairly safe to consider a HD ready TV to be able to do 720p/1080i

That would be nice if it actually displayed it!

(note 1080i can still only use 720 lines)

Where does this come from?

By the way just remembered if you think Sony are being off with the overscan meaning that you didn?t really get 720 horizontal lines how about older 720p plasma TV out there. Most plasmas that were labelled 720p were in fact 1024x768 rather then 1280?720.

The same principles may well apply to them too, I have not looked at those. Perhaps this thread will help those owners also get what they should have been given?

My gut feel is that if your TV is 3 or more years old the 40% offer is not bad and gives you the chance to jump straight to a Full HD TV without hurting the bank too much.

I have no current need for 1080p as its not broadcast over FreeView, I only want to see quality and complete 720p / 1080i, (If those LCD's are actually better than CRT HD - CRT HD is very well regarded by the experts) I just want what I was lead to expect.

Thank you to all the posters for their interesting opinions and helpful debate and comments.

Talkiet

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# 238973 25-Jul-2009 23:31

Hinko:
- You're pissed because you didn't know about / didn't see the HDMI revolution coming.

Not really, HDMI offers 1080p just as well as Component can. I am concerned that Sony, a generally trusted brand should break that trust by taking measures to accelerate the demise of the useful life of the TV through measures such as ICT that cut image quality down over component. That was not promoted to consumers however Sony was busy developing these same technologies at or even before this set was marketed. Even now these measures are incorrectly promoted. FYI 09-12-2002 the HDMI 1.0 standard was released. HDCP was approved for use in 2004 in the US. In contrast the TV set was sold by the retailer late 2006.

I am concerned that both Sony and the retailer has not offered to put things right when putting things right does count and is a fundamental for enduring marketplace reputations.

- You want someone else to take responsibility for your early adoption error.

Yes, it was not I who created or perpetuated misleading consumer information or expectation.

There is also another issue that interests me, the green aspects. These tube TV's that were made should be used for their working life, and not dumped into landfills prematurely because of premature obsolence designed by their manufacturers. Tubes are known to work for over 60 years. In 60 years time we may well be much better at recycling these.

OK, first things first. I have to commend you for a standard of writing, spelling and grammar that's virtually unseen on Geekzone, or in fact, anywhere on the Internet. It's a breath of fresh air not to have to decipher the words and sentences before being able to get to the actual argument!

Now - to address your points...

Sony didn't deliberately take steps to accelerate the demise of the TVs... Consumer pull required they put "HD Ready" TVs on the market, and at that point in time, that meant component input. I had a 32" 100Hz sony CRT with component inputs and it did in fact display wonderful HD material from my PC through component. (I have since had a 40" LCD with HDMI and now a 50" plasma with 3 HDMI)

The problem however was that the industry rights holders got all upset at the analog hole which would effectively circumvent all the lovely anti-copy protections they were/are clinging to, and successfully managed to get the entire content producing industry to agree to restrictions on the analogue interfaces - namely the downscaling proposal.

It's interesting to note that HD displays predated HD sources at least in most regions significantly... Even if not strictly speaking, HD displays were widely available well before affordable HD sources. Once the HD source people got their act together and decided that they would all agree that HD output was only going to be digital to preserve the ability for the token and HDCP etc, there were a lot of HD displays out there without HDMI.

Remember that often standards are defined and agreed upon before wide implementation.

Sadly, this falls into the "Tough, deal with it" camp. It's simply unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to guarantee you that future protocols or standards will be supported. The TV you bought is perfectly capable of displaying HD material. You're upset that it won't display all HD material, and you didn't due your due diligence on the set when you bought it (in 2006?).

How is it Sony's fault you didn't read the specs well enough?

On to your next point... Your "green" argument stands in stark contrast to your writing style. Your writing style is careful, considered and generally excellent.

The "green" argument you put forward is the writing equivalent of "D00dz, I so d3srv a Free-as rad phat Teeveeeee from S0nies!!!!11one!one!!".

It's plain stupid to expect any modern piece of electronics to be in use after even a small number of years - regardless of the condition of the device... There are so many obvious reasons for this that I am not even going to list any.

Keep up the writing style, but start saving for a new TV.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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