2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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Nurse (R)

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#2453138 2-Apr-2020 15:50

I said it way way earlier in this Topic - but it is worth repeating

Can we ensure we clean up line spacing before posting. Not only within quoting but also in normal posts.

Thanks all

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

neb

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#2453140 2-Apr-2020 15:56

Ge0rge: Is this where the Chinese will fit in? The U.S. has already begin the rhetoric with "Chinese Disease" etc, and now the release of the "Leaked document" a few posts back.

Seems like the most likely candidate. Trump has been singularly obsessed with China since long before Covid19, and this will be the perfect excuse to victimise them. Even in the middle of the current crisis they're still busy kicking China at every opportunity, just a few days ago they were trying to force vendors in other countries to stop doing business with China (TSMC with Huawei, etc), so China is the obvious scapegoat.

FineWine

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#2453143 2-Apr-2020 15:58

neb:
Rikkitic:

With the spread of infections and deaths in the USA, and ramped up emergency measures around the country, is there any indication at all that Fox News viewers are starting to get uneasy and are beginning to look at other news sources for more accurate information?

No, they'll actually get more fanatical, not less. This is a well-known concept in the field of psychology. The worrying thing in the US is that they'll need to find an outlet for the discrepancy between what they want to believe and what's actually happening around them. The usual Trump excuses checklist of fake news doesn't work (you can't ignore the death toll), a Democrat or media conspiracy also won't really cut it for the same reason, and what's then left is either the deep state or blaming a minority for it who can be victimised and attacked.

Trump has done so many quick 180's since last Friday, his mouth is still trying to catch up with all the lies his small narcissistic brain has generated.

The very sad thing is that a large proportion of Americans are still not seeing it. Though I did read somewhere that a poll found that the majority of those that do not vote believe in him and those that do vote don't believe in him - Ah

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

neb

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#2453146 2-Apr-2020 16:05

FineWine:
Trump has done so many quick 180's since last Friday, his mouth is still trying to catch up with all the lies his small narcissistic brain has generated.

You see that and I see that and I assume most of the world (outside the US) sees that, but Trump supporters don't. Talked to one a few days ago who thought Trump was doing a wonderful job of handling things and all the media (except Fox) were so unfair to him and kept criticising him over the great job he's doing. It doesn't work that way when you're a True Believer.

dejadeadnz

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#2453147 2-Apr-2020 16:05

MikeB4:

I did not lose my humanity because of that I do not want New Zealand to lose its humanity over this very trying time. Creating scapegoats and sacrificing those scapegoats is not the future any of us should want in our society. What you are suggesting is utterly disgraceful. I understand that you are hurting but your problems won’t be solved by your solution it will be made harder.

We don't often see eye-to-eye but this is damn right. The sort of attitude being espoused is similar to the kind of cut-throat BS from the likes of Fletcher Building where relatively low-paid (in some cases absolutely lowly paid) staff are being "proposed" (on a realistically "Take it or lose your job basis") to take a 70% pay cut whilst senior management/execs who are paid hundreds of thousands to millions (and often have millions in assets) are effectively "sacrificing" their new flash car for a year. It's unnecessary, nasty and will only make things worse for everyone in the end.

Realistically, what stops people who are better off (I'd venture most people on this forum are amongst the better off of society) than most from having their front door smashed, their whole house cleaned out, and potentially your family raped or worse are two things: (1) the knowledge that the state may use deadly force to stop you from actually doing it and/or to arrest you to hold you to account for your conduct after the fact and (2) the knowledge that, realistically speaking, there are better options to make one's life better than, well, raping and pillaging. Policing/law enforcement is traditionally by moral, legal and governance consent of all because it's to enforce a regime where people mostly get a fair go, whatever the system's imperfections. Unless we are happy to have a system where "Might is right!" and the law/police exists only the protect the existing power structures, we need to stop finding people to shaft.

Because, sooner or later, there will be a role reversal of some sort. Maybe not on a total/societal level but you'd hate to be on the receiving end of an angry mob who's been long shafted...

neb

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#2453149 2-Apr-2020 16:11

Trademe have just sent email to say that all sorts of essentials are available for purchase, but most of the stuff linked is non-essential and they all have closing dates a month away. This seems at best confusing, at worst outright misleading...

Paul1977

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#2453152 2-Apr-2020 16:17

I think @dogstar001 probably has a valid point he's wanting to make, just not doing a great job making it.

A 4-6 week lock down is a major inconvenience for most, and an employment ending issue for many. But I think most are in agreement that it needs to be done.

But what happens if it doesn't work, or it appears to work and then we get another huge spike a couple of weeks after the lockdown is lifted? So we have another lockdown. Rinse and repeat.

How long can that continue? The likes of Trump are prematurely beating this drum, but there may come a point where some very difficult decisions will need to be made - because how long can you shut down a country for before it can't recover?

I certainly don't have an answer.

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mattwnz

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#2453153 2-Apr-2020 16:23

Paul1977:

But what happens if it doesn't work, or it appears to work and then we get another huge spike a couple of weeks after the lockdown is lifted. So we have another lockdown. Rinse and repeat.

I certainly don't have an answer.

If it doesn't work, then I think we would need to look at why, and what needs to be done to make sure it works. If everyone was doing things properly, IMO it should work, because people shouldn't be coming into contact with anyone outside their bubble. 2m separation at supermarkets included.

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#2453154 2-Apr-2020 16:23

Paul1977:
A 4-6 week lock down is a major inconvenience for most, and an employment ending issue for many. But I think most are in agreement that it needs to be done.

Not to make too light of it, but it's not immediately fatal. Virtually everyone I know is still working (which admittedly is a reflection of the people I know), admittedly under less than ideal circumstances but most are still on nine-to-five. Of the sector that isn't able to work, retail/services/etc, they've got government subsidies and people being sensible about things like rent payments. I'm not saying it's a cakewalk, but I'd expect the majority of people to be able to get by in some way, and for an awful lot of business to continue rather than seizing up solid as the term "lockdown" implies.

debo

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#2453156 2-Apr-2020 16:26

dejadeadnz:

People behaving like dropkicks during a crisis - Fletcher Building

On Wednesday staff were given a 12-week pay proposal, where their pay would cut by 70 per cent after the lockdown, while senior executives, the chief executive Ross Taylor and those reporting directly to him, would take a 15 per cent pay cut. Taylor's annual base salary as at June 30 2019 was $2.5 million.

All class! Dicks.

So people who are working still get 100% except senior executives who get 85%.

People who are not doing any work can choose to avoid redundancy (for now) and still get paid at a reduced amount.

Once they go back to work they get 100% again.

Sorry, but can you explain you 'dick' comment? I don't follow.

neb

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#2453157 2-Apr-2020 16:26

As an extension of the above, I happened to be outside when the rubbish was collected today: One guy driving the truck with the mechanical arm handling all the touching. He wasn't taking the tags off the bins, but that's a sensible thing to do. So that essential service for example is continuing with relatively minimal risk to the person running it.

Paul1977

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#2453158 2-Apr-2020 16:27

mattwnz:

If it doesn't work, then I think we would need to look at why, and what needs to be done to make sure it works. If everyone was doing things properly, IMO it should work, because people shouldn't be coming into contact with anyone outside their bubble.

In theory it absolutely should work, but as you note it relies on people doing the right thing. And people are the worst.

We can hope for the best, but have to prepare for the worst.

FineWine

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#2453159 2-Apr-2020 16:30

neb:
FineWine:

Trump has done so many quick 180's since last Friday, his mouth is still trying to catch up with all the lies his small narcissistic brain has generated.

You see that and I see that and I assume most of the world (outside the US) sees that, but Trump supporters don't. Talked to one a few days ago who thought Trump was doing a wonderful job of handling things and all the media (except Fox) were so unfair to him and kept criticising him over the great job he's doing. It doesn't work that way when you're a True Believer.

You are quite correct and they will keep on believing as they are gasping for their last breath. The catastrophes and holocausts of Hitler, Pol Pot, Jonestown and Wago notwithstanding true believers are the ones that scare me the most and they never accept responsibility for their actions or lack of.

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

freitasm

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#2453160 2-Apr-2020 16:31

@debo:

dejadeadnz:

People behaving like dropkicks during a crisis - Fletcher Building

All class! Dicks.

So people who are working still get 100% except senior executives who get 85%.

People who are not doing any work can choose to avoid redundancy (for now) and still get paid at a reduced amount.

Once they go back to work they get 100% again.

Sorry, but can you explain you 'dick' comment? I don't follow.

No. Read the article:

"Fletcher Building has proposed its executives take a 15 per cent cut in pay, but other staff could see a 70 per cent slash in income in the weeks after the coronavirus lockdown"

People get a 70% pay cut. Bosses get a 15% pay cut.

Paul1977

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#2453161 2-Apr-2020 16:33

neb:

Not to make too light of it, but it's not immediately fatal. Virtually everyone I know is still working (which admittedly is a reflection of the people I know), admittedly under less than ideal circumstances but most are still on nine-to-five. Of the sector that isn't able to work, retail/services/etc, they've got government subsidies and people being sensible about things like rent payments. I'm not saying it's a cakewalk, but I'd expect the majority of people to be able to get by in some way, and for an awful lot of business to continue rather than seizing up solid as the term "lockdown" implies.

It is an enormous sector of the economy which is effectively shut right down, and many of the ones that are still "sort of" operating are doing so only to the extent that they are planning for when they reopen. Many of these businesses can only tread water for so long - eg 4 weeks ok, 6 weeks maybe, 8 weeks untenable.

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