Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one - if not why not?

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#1812263 3-Jul-2017 21:32

MikeAqua:

ubergeeknz:

https://www.eecabusiness.govt.nz/tools/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-tool/ puts the yearly cost over 3 years for a leaf (at $35k! when you could get one for ~20k) at around 6k

I also doubt that on average 6k/year is enough long term to cover maintenance items on such a car. Maintenance on an EV is much less as there are fewer things to go wrong or that require servicing.

But (yet) again ... the money you pay for a near new leaf, you can buy a new ICEV with free servicing and no WOF for three years.

A leaf will have fewer but still some servicing requirements tyres, bearings, brakes, ?diff?

And if battery replacement is required ...

Daily running costs for an EV are much lower. The ICEV can't match that. For anyone who needs the range some claim here as reason to not buy an EV, the saving would be large.....unless they don't really need the range.

Then there is the emissions thing......and especially for deisel, the RUC thing. I've driven 27000km since November. That's a saving of $63 * 27 = $1701

If I only charged at home for 20 cents / kWh and my average efficiency was 7km / kWh then my 27,000km has cost me $771. Reality is a bit more complicated as I have paid more than that for fast charging but at the same time I've also done a lot of charging for free (Vector / Spark Plug / various public chargers) or for no additional cost (included in Hotel room tariff, for example).

If an ICEV get 7L/100km (which is pretty good) then 27,000km would be 1888L of petrol.....and at an average $1.90 / L that would put the fuel bill at $3587 for the same 27,000km.

So the EV would be just under $2800 cheaper to run over the same distance.....and many ICEVs are less efficient than 7L / 100km.

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Linuxluver

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#1812277 3-Jul-2017 22:17

ubergeeknz:

Not everyone makes a lot of long trips. If you do 1-2 times a year, you could just hire a car for that. I mean you're right, the current offerings are not for everyone. But the limitations are not as severe in practice as a lot of people seem to think.

Very true.

I've driven my LEAF from Auckland to Bluff to Cape Reinga to Auckland....and that was just one trip of many.

The Tesla guys say they drive from A to B while LEAF drivers have adventures.

I can say there is some truth in that.

So while some may see a car like the LEAF as being less capable than they think they require, others see an opportunity do things differently and learn new ways of doing things.

My LEAF gets me everywhere I want to go. I don't feel limited at all......and I'm having a massive time. I drove from Auckland to Opotiki today via Cambridge and Tauranga. Loved every minute.

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Goosey

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#1812309 4-Jul-2017 06:58

Nope, need a big car to lug kid/family and feel like a man grunting down the road <cue Tim Allen / Home Improvement grunt>

If oneday electric can compete with at least a 2lt and go hill driving for 2 hours...then I might consider.

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#1812316 4-Jul-2017 07:20

Only milk and juice come in 2 Litres ;)

jarledb

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#1812364 4-Jul-2017 09:21

Goosey:

If oneday electric can compete with at least a 2lt and go hill driving for 2 hours...then I might consider.

You are aware that the Tesla is the fastest(*) sedan around, right? Not the fastest EV, but the fastest ANY type sedan.

The fastest Tesla Model S goes 0 - 100 km/h in 2,7 seconds. And their fastest Model X (SUV) goes from 0-100 in 3,1 seconds.

* Fastest here meaning: Fastest from 0-100 km/h. I don't know about you, but to me its not that interesting if a car can do 200 km/h or 300 km/h as top speed, I am never going to drive it at those speeds in any case.

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Linuxluver

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#1812379 4-Jul-2017 10:04

Goosey:

Nope, need a big car to lug kid/family and feel like a man grunting down the road <cue Tim Allen / Home Improvement grunt>

If oneday electric can compete with at least a 2lt and go hill driving for 2 hours...then I might consider.

Fair enough! :-)

They are coming.

Though the 2L thing is way off the mark. EVs beat petrol engines at speeds anywhere near legal.....and the only issue is the range. That's already sorted out at the top end. A Tesla Model S 100 can do 580km......which would be more than good enough for 2 hours of hill driving. It's really just about money today....and that problem is being fixed rapidly.

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MikeAqua

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#1812384 4-Jul-2017 10:08

Linuxluver:

Daily running costs for an EV are much lower. The ICEV can't match that. For anyone who needs the range some claim here as reason to not buy an EV, the saving would be large.....unless they don't really need the range.

Then there is the emissions thing......and especially for deisel, the RUC thing. I've driven 27000km since November. That's a saving of $63 * 27 = $1701

No dispute on the difference in daily running costs. They are a small component of vehicle ownership costs. The biggest determination of cost of vehicle ownership at average annual mileage is purchase price - because it effects finance/opportunity cost and depreciation. Which is why EV manufacturers need to get that sorted, pronto.

I agree RUC are a PITA. Still cheaper than feeding the equivalent petrol vehicle by a long shot but the need to repeatedly buy RUC is a PITA.

In a couple of years as family structure changes, I'll look to down-boat to something <1,000kg on the trailer and buy a medium petrol crossover. That will allow me to get away from the dreaded RUC and save $100/year on licensing. For now with >2 tonnes of boat trailer and gear and 6 people ... a large diesel is the only option.

One thing I will say about a boat is that it makes almost any car look cheap to run

Mike

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Linuxluver

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#1812394 4-Jul-2017 10:29

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

Daily running costs for an EV are much lower. The ICEV can't match that. For anyone who needs the range some claim here as reason to not buy an EV, the saving would be large.....unless they don't really need the range.

Then there is the emissions thing......and especially for deisel, the RUC thing. I've driven 27000km since November. That's a saving of $63 * 27 = $1701

No dispute on the difference in daily running costs. They are a small component of vehicle ownership costs. The biggest determination of cost of vehicle ownership at average annual mileage is purchase price - because it effects finance/opportunity cost and depreciation. Which is why EV manufacturers need to get that sorted, pronto.

I agree RUC are a PITA. Still cheaper than feeding the equivalent petrol vehicle by a long shot but the need to repeatedly buy RUC is a PITA.

In a couple of years as family structure changes, I'll look to down-boat to something <1,000kg on the trailer and buy a medium petrol crossover. That will allow me to get away from the dreaded RUC and save $100/year on licensing. For now with >2 tonnes of boat trailer and gear and 6 people ... a large diesel is the only option.

One thing I will say about a boat is that it makes almost any car look cheap to run

Hopefully a good towing EV will appear in the next 2-3 years.

:-)

Boat = Hole in the water you pour money into.

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MikeB4

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#1812405 4-Jul-2017 10:41

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

Daily running costs for an EV are much lower. The ICEV can't match that. For anyone who needs the range some claim here as reason to not buy an EV, the saving would be large.....unless they don't really need the range.

Then there is the emissions thing......and especially for deisel, the RUC thing. I've driven 27000km since November. That's a saving of $63 * 27 = $1701

No dispute on the difference in daily running costs. They are a small component of vehicle ownership costs. The biggest determination of cost of vehicle ownership at average annual mileage is purchase price - because it effects finance/opportunity cost and depreciation. Which is why EV manufacturers need to get that sorted, pronto.

I agree RUC are a PITA. Still cheaper than feeding the equivalent petrol vehicle by a long shot but the need to repeatedly buy RUC is a PITA.

In a couple of years as family structure changes, I'll look to down-boat to something <1,000kg on the trailer and buy a medium petrol crossover. That will allow me to get away from the dreaded RUC and save $100/year on licensing. For now with >2 tonnes of boat trailer and gear and 6 people ... a large diesel is the only option.

One thing I will say about a boat is that it makes almost any car look cheap to run

Hopefully a good towing EV will appear in the next 2-3 years.

:-)

Boat = Hole in the water you pour money into.

Boat = "Bring on another thousand". I know I am (was) a boatie

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#1812440 4-Jul-2017 11:36

MikeAqua:

In a couple of years as family structure changes, I'll look to down-boat to something <1,000kg on the trailer and buy a medium petrol crossover. That will allow me to get away from the dreaded RUC and save $100/year on licensing. For now with >2 tonnes of boat trailer and gear and 6 people ... a large diesel is the only option.

Pfft. They are using their Model X to pull this stuff in Norway:

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#1812444 4-Jul-2017 11:39

Linuxluver:

Though the 2L thing is way off the mark. EVs beat petrol engines at speeds anywhere near legal.....and the only issue is the range. That's already sorted out at the top end. A Tesla Model S 100 can do 580km......which would be more than good enough for 2 hours of hill driving. It's really just about money today....and that problem is being fixed rapidly.

I think a relevant comparison vehicle for high spec Tesla-S would be a production high performance all wheel drive vehicle in a similar price bracket. Nothing high-end but something like Nissan's GTR (affectionately known as Godzilla) or Mitsubishi's Lancer Evolution (Evo).

I actually think the S is pretty good value in that price bracket. If you want to feel sporty at the speed limit for couple of hours it's a good choice.

You can get that feeling at a much lower price point in an ICEV. For example the Civic Type-R is little beast and cost $60k and is a performance vehicle. At 8.8L/100km it probably has less range than the Model S on one 'charge'.

But from a pure performance perspective ... only a speed limit would save the S from those other three vehicles. The S has proven unable to sustain power output

I would have an S in my lotto garage. Maybe next to the F-350 .

Mike

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#1812483 4-Jul-2017 12:00

jarledb:

MikeAqua:

In a couple of years as family structure changes, I'll look to down-boat to something <1,000kg on the trailer and buy a medium petrol crossover. That will allow me to get away from the dreaded RUC and save $100/year on licensing. For now with >2 tonnes of boat trailer and gear and 6 people ... a large diesel is the only option.

Pfft. They are using their Model X to pull this stuff in Norway:

Towing a 2 tonne Boat with an X in Florida appears to be possible, ( although you have to wear a 50% range reduction- which makes sense as you have basically doubled the weight being hauled)

http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-x-boat-towing-acceleration-video-and-energy-usage-test/

MikeB4

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#1812509 4-Jul-2017 12:46

jarledb:

MikeAqua:

In a couple of years as family structure changes, I'll look to down-boat to something <1,000kg on the trailer and buy a medium petrol crossover. That will allow me to get away from the dreaded RUC and save $100/year on licensing. For now with >2 tonnes of boat trailer and gear and 6 people ... a large diesel is the only option.

Pfft. They are using their Model X to pull this stuff in Norway:

Depending on the fitted wheel size its capacity ranges from circa 1500KG to circa 2300KG which is impressive. It also has an effective anti sway control. I would pull a boat with that just not sure I would put that value in the salt water.

MikeAqua

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#1812581 4-Jul-2017 13:54

jarledb:

MikeAqua:

In a couple of years as family structure changes, I'll look to down-boat to something <1,000kg on the trailer and buy a medium petrol crossover. That will allow me to get away from the dreaded RUC and save $100/year on licensing. For now with >2 tonnes of boat trailer and gear and 6 people ... a large diesel is the only option.

Pfft. They are using their Model X to pull this stuff in Norway:

That caravan is more aerodynamic, narrower (if it confirms to European max width) and more stable than my boat on its trailer and maybe lighter too.

Interesting to see Model X can now be rated at 5,000lbs with an optional package. Used to be 3,500lbs. That's a decent tow rating now. At 2,200kg it's heavy enough to handle a 2,000kg trailer.

My concern would be range. The extra mass and drag of a boat reduces range.

A Model-X owner in the US reported towing a 2,200kg boat long distance at 55mph (comparable to our 90kmh). That's a lower profile boat than mine but the weight is comparable. He got 575 Wh/mile on the flat. That's 35 kWh/100 km. The battery in a Model-x is 100kWh.

I don't know how to estimate the recharge from regenerative braking while towing a braked trailer. A braked trailer does most of its own braking. The author reported 800-900 Wh/mile on a slight incline. So maybe the flat running is a fair average figure to allow for some expensive uphill sections offset by some regenerative charging.

I know my vehicle brakes feel cooler after towing than after normal driving. By comparison the boat trailer brakes get quite hot.

Mike

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#1812584 4-Jul-2017 14:01

MikeB4:

I would pull a boat with that just not sure I would put that value in the salt water.

I did wonder about salt water beach launching with something that expensive and that electronic. Ditto alloy rims with tubeless tyres. I try and keep to water below the bead line when launching in the Paj.

But to be fair those aren't problems associated with EVs per se, and could be designed around.

Mike

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