Anybody believe this guy - Ashley Madison leak

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Awrrr
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#1372879 24-Aug-2015 09:43

Courts exist for a reason. I have doubts about our adversarial system, with juries and competing lawyers, but it is certainly preferable to unknown individuals taking it upon themselves to pass judgement. If the site in question was involved in CP, then any hack should certainly go to the police, but going public is a whole different matter. It bypasses the entire process of justice and proportionality. It ignores all the safeguards built into the system. It is anonymous vigilantes taking it upon themselves to act as judge and jury. That is never a good idea.

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wasabi2k

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#1372885 24-Aug-2015 09:50

So in a fun and exciting twist I got 2 emails last night to my personal gmail:

1. Welcome to your first day on AshleyMadison!
2. RandomUserLady wants to message you on AshleyMadison.

Err, whut?

Didn't click anything in the email, went to AshleyMadison, did a password reset.
Account had been created with a bogus birthday (4 years older than me) and as a 136KG "voluptuous" attached man looking for ladies.

Deleted the profile.

freitasm

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#1372891 24-Aug-2015 10:00

Paul1977:
freitasm: Why are you folks debating immorality when the fact is a group decided that it was upon them to break into a company, steal data and distribute that?

What the data represents is irrelevant at this point.

Some want to make this a religious discussion by dragging the morality bit up and down. This is the wrong thing to discuss on Geekzone.

I don't know that I agree. What if it was a child pornography site?

But it is not such a case so your point is moot.

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freitasm

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#1372892 24-Aug-2015 10:02

Paul1977: OK, so forget the last bit. What about illegally hacking the site and giving details to police? It is still illegally hacking, is that wrong?

Look for "fruit of the poisonous tree" or "tainted evidence". It may not be admissible.

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Fred99

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#1372898 24-Aug-2015 10:12

Whichever way I try to look at it, it always gets back to a moral argument.

Strip out how the information was acquired from the argument, scale it back, then consider what you would do;

You got hold of some evidence - about someone doing something you thought was immoral (but not illegal), but you know that information was a private matter, and disclosure was going to be embarrassing to them (at the least)
Are you going to post that evidence on your facebook page, tweet it, create a new GZ OT thread - for everyone to see?
No? But it's okay if you don't know the person? Or it's okay if the person was a public figure (Len Brown, Clinton, Princess Diana) because in your view there's a "public good" in exposing them?

freitasm

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#1372900 24-Aug-2015 10:15

Fred99: Whichever way I try to look at it, it always gets back to a moral argument.

Strip out how the information was acquired from the argument, scale it back, then consider what you would do;

You got hold of some evidence - about someone doing something you thought was immoral (but not illegal), but you know that information was a private matter, and disclosure was going to be embarrassing to them (at the least)
Are you going to post that evidence on your facebook page, tweet it, create a new GZ OT thread - for everyone to see?
No? But it's okay if you don't know the person? Or it's okay if the person was a public figure (Len Brown, Clinton, Princess Diana) because in your view there's a "public good" in exposing them?

Moral again... Let's put this way then: the email is not verified so anyone can enter any email address there. Are you the person who can make the call and publicise someone's name - even though you have no way to actually confirm that was the person who registered?

No, you shouldn't. So walk away from the keyboard before doing it.

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Paul1977

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#1372908 24-Aug-2015 10:27

freitasm:
Paul1977:
freitasm: Why are you folks debating immorality when the fact is a group decided that it was upon them to break into a company, steal data and distribute that?

What the data represents is irrelevant at this point.

Some want to make this a religious discussion by dragging the morality bit up and down. This is the wrong thing to discuss on Geekzone.

I don't know that I agree. What if it was a child pornography site?

But it is not such a case so your point is moot.

My point was just that I don't agree that "what the data represents is irrelevant". Perhaps my example wasn't very good.

Paul1977

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#1372913 24-Aug-2015 10:32

freitasm: Let's put this way then: the email is not verified so anyone can enter any email address there. Are you the person who can make the call and publicise someone's name - even though you have no way to actually confirm that was the person who registered?

No, you shouldn't. So walk away from the keyboard before doing it.

And if AM did require email verification? It seems to me that everything falls on a spectrum.

I think the AM leak is wrong, but I am not going to make a blanket statement that any type of hack and leak is wrong.

lucky015

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#1372923 24-Aug-2015 10:55

I will never understand why people feel the need to obsess over the personal lives of others as if it the morality of what they did actually has any relevance to having a business relationship with them.

sir1963

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#1372942 24-Aug-2015 11:35

Paul1977:
freitasm:
Paul1977:
freitasm: Why are you folks debating immorality when the fact is a group decided that it was upon them to break into a company, steal data and distribute that?

What the data represents is irrelevant at this point.

Some want to make this a religious discussion by dragging the morality bit up and down. This is the wrong thing to discuss on Geekzone.

I don't know that I agree. What if it was a child pornography site?

But it is not such a case so your point is moot.

My point was just that I don't agree that "what the data represents is irrelevant". Perhaps my example wasn't very good.

"What the data represent"... to , what data and to who ?

Its was not that long ago being Homosexual was punishable by imprisonment and chemical castration.

Drinking alcohol , kissing in public, holding hands in public is punishable in certain countries because of their Moral code

Making fun of the Monarchy is punishable in other countries.

The ONLY person you get to apply your morals to is yourself.

Rikkitic

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#1372944 24-Aug-2015 11:38

Some time ago, when the use of suppression orders was being questioned, I made a point of discovering the identities of numerous individuals who had been granted one. This is not difficult to do. Most of these had to do with child abuse, some with domestic violence. I did this as a matter of principle, because I strongly disagree with the way suppression orders were (and are) being used.

So I ended up with a list of musicians, rugby players, doctors, teachers, politicians and comedians. What did I do with it? Absolutely nothing. Knowledge is power, and spreading this knowledge around might have given me a little gossipy thrill, but I thought about it and decided not to for a number of good reasons. Mainly, doing so would have violated principles I try to live by. I strongly believe in individual responsibility. I believe people ought to be capable of doing the right thing because it is the right thing, not because they fear punishment. I collected this information as a matter of principle, because I did not accept that the authorities had the right to tell me what I was allowed to know, and because I felt that the power to suppress names was not being used correctly. But as Spiderman's uncle says, with great power comes great responsibility. I do not believe it is my place to make this kind of information public. Some of it was suppressed for a good reason. In other cases, what gives me the right to decided to ruin the life of someone I don't even know, just because they probably did something I find reprehensible. I don't know all the circumstances, I have no special training in such matters, maybe what the person did, however despicable, was one-off and they
regret it every day of their lives. I do not have the wisdom to pass judgement on this sort of thing and that is why I object to to the use of loaded terms like 'immoral' when discussing behaviour like adultery. Immoral is brutally slaughtering whole populations because you don't approve of their beliefs. Immoral is letting boatloads of desperate refugees drown because no country wants to take responsibility for them. Immoral is remotely murdering people from a distance and treating it like a video game. Immoral is not having a little on the side and not telling your partner. That is merely dishonest.

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JWR

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#1372957 24-Aug-2015 11:49

Paul1977:
Geektastic:
Paul1977:
freitasm: Why are you folks debating immorality when the fact is a group decided that it was upon them to break into a company, steal data and distribute that?

What the data represents is irrelevant at this point.

Some want to make this a religious discussion by dragging the morality bit up and down. This is the wrong thing to discuss on Geekzone.

I don't know that I agree. What if it was a child pornography site?

In that instance, while I wouldn't agree with the info being made public, I would have no issue with someone hacking the site and providing the info to the police.

But what if the police then said they can't act on it as the info was obtained illegally? Is releasing it to the public OK then?

What, so that the public can get their pitchforks out and lynch the people on the list, before finding out that the list was somehow wrong and the person they hanged from the tree is actually innocent?

OK, so forget the last bit. What about illegally hacking the site and giving details to police? It is still illegally hacking, is that wrong?

Any contact with a child pornography site is problematic.

There is no point in hacking such a site. Having possession of the data, no matter the reason, is a crime.

Avoid at all costs.

DizzyD

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#1372961 24-Aug-2015 11:53

sir1963:

The ONLY person you get to apply your morals to is yourself.

Agreed. But nothing wrong with having a view that adultery is immoral either.

Rikkitic: I do not have the wisdom to pass judgement on this sort of thing and that is why I object to to the use of loaded terms like 'immoral' when discussing behaviour like adultery. Immoral is brutally slaughtering whole populations because you don't approve of their beliefs. Immoral is letting boatloads of desperate refugees drown because no country wants to take responsibility for them. Immoral is remotely murdering people from a distance and treating it like a video game. Immoral is not having a little on the side and not telling your partner. That is merely dishonest.

No different to somebody who believes kissing in public is immoral (I'm sure there are the type). Point here is, people are all different, we all hold different views on the world. Everyone is entitled to their own view, just like you entitled to your view/definition as to the examples you have supplied.

I don't think anybody here is trying "imply morals" on anybody. Thats a different thing entirely.

If somebody says something is immorally wrong, you don't need to try and prove them wrong. Accept their view and differences and move on. Your examples of immorality are just different to mine. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression. People fought in wars for this stuff.

DizzyD

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#1372963 24-Aug-2015 11:55

JWR:

Any contact with a child pornography site is problematic.

There is no point in hacking such a site. Having possession of the data, no matter the reason, is a crime.

Avoid at all costs.

Hacking is already a crime.

freitasm

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#1372964 24-Aug-2015 11:55

And hence why I still can't understand the discussion focus on what people were doing there instead of how incompetent this company was at securing their data.

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