Police not issuing tickets to unlicensed Maori drivers

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#1327094 18-Jun-2015 10:16

Geektastic:

We are talking about a very simple document here - a driving licence. Pretty much everywhere in the world requires people to have one in order to drive. It is not a massive infringement of civil liberties to expect people to get one if they wish to take advantage of the privilege of driving on the public roads.

Driving isn't a privilege, it's a right.

Geektastic:
The documents are cheap as chips - barely $100. However, it seems to me a logical solution is this:

Sure, for you $100 for tests might be cheap. Some people spend more than that on coffee each week, but for people in South Auckland, that can be a lot of money.

Geektastic:
Make the licence free.

Agreed. The whole process should be free, end to end. We should just fund it off a 1cent increase in petrol and road users.

Geektastic:
Then double the punishment for not having one, because there is no longer ANY excuse other than wilful intent.

$800 fine.

I just don't get the impression you actually understand these people or have thought this through.

These people just don't care. You give them an $800 fine you'll then just have to follow them up to bring them to court, to give them community service orders, which they won't do, to bring them back to court to give them a jail term, which we end up paying for. All the time they're laughing at you, because you're paying for it.

Geektastic:
It would probably work out cost neutral once you account for all the police and court time wasted chasing offenders now which would (logically) be significantly reduced.

Again, you're just making the assumption they pay the fines. They won't.

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#1327109 18-Jun-2015 10:38

MikeB4:

Of course those on income support earning around $160 per week can pay the very expensive costs of obtaining a license after all food, clothing and a roof over the head are luxuries they can do with out whilst they do this.

If the issue is genuinely that you cannot afford to pay $111.70 for a driver's license that lasts 10 years - i.e. $11.17 per year - then I'm sure there's other way to sort it out than to put yourself at risk of a $400 fine. I don't agree with Geektastic's drastic consequences for a first offence, but if you rely on your ability to drive, then he's right about one thing: there is a very clear and reasonable requirement to have a license, and you cannot honestly say you don't know that.

How are you even insured without a license? And if you're not insured, what are doing on the road?

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#1327116 18-Jun-2015 10:47

SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:

Of course those on income support earning around $160 per week can pay the very expensive costs of obtaining a license after all food, clothing and a roof over the head are luxuries they can do with out whilst they do this.

If the issue is genuinely that you cannot afford to pay $111.70 for a driver's license that lasts 10 years - i.e. $11.17 per year - then I'm sure there's other way to sort it out than to put yourself at risk of a $400 fine. I don't agree with Geektastic's drastic consequences for a first offence, but if you rely on your ability to drive, then he's right about one thing: there is a very clear and reasonable requirement to have a license, and you cannot honestly say you don't know that.

How are you even insured without a license? And if you're not insured, what are doing on the road?

It's more than just the Fee it's all the other costs involved. And yes someone on income support this money is a huge hurdle

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#1327118 18-Jun-2015 10:50

MikeB4:

It's more than just the Fee it's all the other costs involved. And yes someone on income support this money is a huge hurdle

Well, to be honest, if you can't afford the fees, you can't afford to drive. License compliance fees are the smallest part of the cost of driving. If you can't afford $11 a year for a license, how do you afford a new set of tires? Brake pads? Petrol?

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networkn

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#1327120 18-Jun-2015 10:53

SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:

Of course those on income support earning around $160 per week can pay the very expensive costs of obtaining a license after all food, clothing and a roof over the head are luxuries they can do with out whilst they do this.

If the issue is genuinely that you cannot afford to pay $111.70 for a driver's license that lasts 10 years - i.e. $11.17 per year - then I'm sure there's other way to sort it out than to put yourself at risk of a $400 fine. I don't agree with Geektastic's drastic consequences for a first offence, but if you rely on your ability to drive, then he's right about one thing: there is a very clear and reasonable requirement to have a license, and you cannot honestly say you don't know that.

How are you even insured without a license? And if you're not insured, what are doing on the road?

More to the point, if you can't afford $111 for a license, HOW CAN YOU AFFORD TO RUN A CAR!?

MikeB4

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#1327126 18-Jun-2015 10:54

SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:

It's more than just the Fee it's all the other costs involved. And yes someone on income support this money is a huge hurdle

Well, to be honest, if you can't afford the fees, you can't afford to drive. License compliance fees are the smallest part of the cost of driving. If you can't afford $11 a year for a license, how do you afford a new set of tires? Brake pads? Petrol?

A drivers license opens many employment opportunities, their chances of getting off Income Support are enhanced thus more potential savings for the taxpayer. In my experience many clients were baulked in their quest for employment
because they did not have a license and could not afford to get one.

networkn

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#1327128 18-Jun-2015 10:57

MikeB4:
SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:

It's more than just the Fee it's all the other costs involved. And yes someone on income support this money is a huge hurdle

Well, to be honest, if you can't afford the fees, you can't afford to drive. License compliance fees are the smallest part of the cost of driving. If you can't afford $11 a year for a license, how do you afford a new set of tires? Brake pads? Petrol?

A drivers license opens many employment opportunities, their chances of getting off Income Support are enhanced thus more potential savings for the taxpayer. In my experience many clients were baulked in their quest for employment
because they did not have a license and could not afford to get one.

Well then it should be a top priority for them right?

I mean I applaud an attempt to get compliance instead of fines, heartily disagree with the way they have presented it, but you seem to be arguing both sides of the coin here.

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Paul1977

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#1327132 18-Jun-2015 11:01

SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:

Of course those on income support earning around $160 per week can pay the very expensive costs of obtaining a license after all food, clothing and a roof over the head are luxuries they can do with out whilst they do this.

If the issue is genuinely that you cannot afford to pay $111.70 for a driver's license that lasts 10 years - i.e. $11.17 per year - then I'm sure there's other way to sort it out than to put yourself at risk of a $400 fine. I don't agree with Geektastic's drastic consequences for a first offence, but if you rely on your ability to drive, then he's right about one thing: there is a very clear and reasonable requirement to have a license, and you cannot honestly say you don't know that.

Exactly. I don't buy the "we can't afford it" excuse for one second. If you can afford a car and petrol, you can damn well afford a license.

I also disagree about making first offense punishments more extreme, but I think subsequent offenses need to be harsher. Steep fines, if they can't pay then community service, if they don't show up then jail time. Jail time would be a last resort, that they would have every opportunity to avoid - but I don't see the point in continual fines that will never be paid.

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MikeB4

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#1327133 18-Jun-2015 11:01

networkn:
SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:

Of course those on income support earning around $160 per week can pay the very expensive costs of obtaining a license after all food, clothing and a roof over the head are luxuries they can do with out whilst they do this.

If the issue is genuinely that you cannot afford to pay $111.70 for a driver's license that lasts 10 years - i.e. $11.17 per year - then I'm sure there's other way to sort it out than to put yourself at risk of a $400 fine. I don't agree with Geektastic's drastic consequences for a first offence, but if you rely on your ability to drive, then he's right about one thing: there is a very clear and reasonable requirement to have a license, and you cannot honestly say you don't know that.

How are you even insured without a license? And if you're not insured, what are doing on the road?

More to the point, if you can't afford $111 for a license, HOW CAN YOU AFFORD TO RUN A CAR!?

Hint; They can get employment as a driver

MikeB4

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#1327134 18-Jun-2015 11:03

Paul1977:
SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:

Of course those on income support earning around $160 per week can pay the very expensive costs of obtaining a license after all food, clothing and a roof over the head are luxuries they can do with out whilst they do this.

If the issue is genuinely that you cannot afford to pay $111.70 for a driver's license that lasts 10 years - i.e. $11.17 per year - then I'm sure there's other way to sort it out than to put yourself at risk of a $400 fine. I don't agree with Geektastic's drastic consequences for a first offence, but if you rely on your ability to drive, then he's right about one thing: there is a very clear and reasonable requirement to have a license, and you cannot honestly say you don't know that.

Exactly. I don't buy the "we can't afford it" excuse for one second. If you can afford a car and petrol, you can damn well afford a license.

I also disagree about making first offense punishments more extreme, but I think subsequent offenses need to be harsher. Steep fines, if they can't pay then community service, if they don't show up then jail time. Jail time would be a last resort, that they would have every opportunity to avoid - but I don't see the point in continual fines that will never be paid.

Of course everyone who drives a vehicle owns a vehicle.

SaltyNZ

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#1327141 18-Jun-2015 11:10

MikeB4:
Of course everyone who drives a vehicle owns a vehicle.

OK, point taken, but even if you only drive for your job, then there's still no excuse to not have a license. You need a license to be an electrician, or a plumber, or to drive a forklift or a crane, or to weld gas fittings. As other people have pointed out, if you need a driver's license to do your job, then it should be a top priority.

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DonGould

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#1327147 18-Jun-2015 11:18

Application fee

Test fee1,*

Total

Learner licence
(class 1 or 6)

$48.70

$47.40

$96.10

Restricted licence
(class 1 or 6)

$48.70

$88.303

$137.00

Full licence
(class 1 or 6)

$50.00

$61.703

$111.70

That's $344.80 - http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/photo/fees-refunds.html

http://www.code1st.net/pricing.html

So let's add in some lessons and the cost to hire the lesson car to get your test in (because we're not going to assume that you have a warrant and registered car in South Auckland)

Cheapest Driving Lessons & Discounted Package Deals

With South Auckland Driving School

Options

Pricing

Individual Lessons (Tutor's Car)

$60 Per Hour

Prepaid Package Lessons (Tutor's Car)

$280 for 5 x 1 hour Lessons *

Prepaid Package Lessons (Tutor's Car)

$520 for 10 x 1 hour Lessons *

Individual Lesson (Own Car)

$50 Per Hour

Prepaid Package Lessons (Own Car)

$230 for 5 x 1 hour Lessons *

Prepaid Package Lessons (Own Car)

$470 for 10 x 1 hour Lessons *

Assessments

$80.00

Road Code Tuition

$50.00

Practical Driving Test Car Hire

$90.00

I'd been driving for two years and still had to have 10 lessons before I passed.

So let's add it up...

Learners - 96.10
Lessons - $520
Test Car - $90
Restricted - $137

Next you'll want to be doing a defensive driving course before you sit for a full license so

http://www.addanz.co.nz/ADDA/Course-Dates-Manukau.php

Theory: $130 and Practical: $45

So

Theory $130
Practical $45
Full Lic - $111.70

Now let's just add that all up... $1129.80 - and that's why we have this problem in South Auckland!

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DonGould

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#1327148 18-Jun-2015 11:18

Oh... and in South Auckland I'm sure you can buy a car for much less than $1130.

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frankv

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#1327155 18-Jun-2015 11:23

SaltyNZ:
Well, to be honest, if you can't afford the fees, you can't afford to drive. License compliance fees are the smallest part of the cost of driving. If you can't afford $11 a year for a license, how do you afford a new set of tires? Brake pads? Petrol?

For many people, they can't afford NOT to drive. Their ability to earn money depends on getting to a place of work at an appropriate time. Apart from that, full participation in NZ society requires you to be able to travel by car (i.e. at least have a driver available to you, if not drive yourself).... public transport just isn't good enough.

Maybe it's possible that you can barely afford petrol, brake pads, tyres... just not the extra for a license.

It's not just the $11 a year to keep the license though... there is the up-front cost of getting it in the first place. In the good old days, Dad would teach you to drive in the family car. Nowadays, it seems that at least some professional driver training is a requirement. I do wonder whether that change has in fact improved the standard of NZ drivers, or if it's just a cash cow for the AA. Maybe it has even reduced the standard, with significant numbers of unlicensed, taught by their boy racer friends, drivers on the road. Anyway, for driving lessons you need cash up front to the tune of $70/hr in Auckland. If you don't have several hundred dollars to pay for it, how do you get your license? Borrow the money from a loan shark?

MikeB4

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#1327157 18-Jun-2015 11:24

SaltyNZ:
MikeB4:
Of course everyone who drives a vehicle owns a vehicle.

OK, point taken, but even if you only drive for your job, then there's still no excuse to not have a license. You need a license to be an electrician, or a plumber, or to drive a forklift or a crane, or to weld gas fittings. As other people have pointed out, if you need a driver's license to do your job, then it should be a top priority.

I feel like a broken CD here, if they are on income support they cant afford the license, therefore they cant get the job that requires the license so the catch 22 has begun. This policy which I clearly applaud is an attempt to break the catch 22.
Years as an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff has shown me we need initiatives like this and more to break the cycle. The community at large has everything to gain from such initiatives.

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