EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2094730 21-Sep-2018 19:02

PolicyGuy:

There is very little energy efficiency difference between LED and compact fluorescent bulbs. This will make no odds to the power companies (gentailers or lines companies)
Where LEDs win is on durability, they should last much longer.
BTW you can't buy incandescent bulbs anymore, or not easily.

[Fix typo]

They are still out there.

I watched a kid try to tell her mum that the $7 LED would use 1/5th the power and last 5 years.

Mum responded with "I'm buying the cheapest one" and put the $1 incandescent bulb in the shopping trolley......as she will do roughly ever 3 months for the next 5 years, costing $20 instead of $7.....plus the extra 60w / hour it needs when lit. OK....it's not huge for one bulb, but 10 of them would be 600w / hour x 6 hours / day = 3.6kWh every day....and that's 60c to a dollar tight there, depending on the price......so 60c x 365 x 5 = $1095 *more* for electricity across 5 years than if she had bought 10 x 10w LED bulbs for $70.

If you tried to explain she's wasting a thousand dollars.....she wouldn't believe it.

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

TLD

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#2094855 22-Sep-2018 09:19

I thought this was pretty clever. Charge up your electric vehicle when unit costs are lowest, and feed it back during peak times. Quite how this would fit with actually driving the car, or least ways, have any power left in the battery to go anywhere after discharging it to reheat the house water after certain family member has spent 45 minutes in the shower, I have no idea, but it is a cool idea. There is a YouTube channel that features a guy obsessed with Tesla. He buys wrecks and takes them to pieces, which you'd think might be a way to get cheap storage capability, but even a near written of Tesla apparently still carries a significant price tag. Perhaps there's be some battery bargains to be had when Elon Musk finally drives his company into the ground.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-manchester-45516816/salford-scientists-show-how-cars-could-power-your-home

Trevor Dennis
Rapaura (near Blenheim)

Clawhammer

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#2094931 22-Sep-2018 12:14

Taking power from the grid when it's cheap and selling it back at peak times from your car battery or Powerwall will help to mask the fact that this country is short of generation capacity. Both options consume electricity, the Powerwall2 is between 85% and 92% efficient depending on how it is used, I imagine that using car batteries for storage will be somewhat less efficient.

I presume that as we are all good citizens, all profits from such activities along with any money received from FIT power will be declared on our tax returns along with offsets for depreciation, once a gain proving that no good deed goes unpunished.

kingdragonfly

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#2094945 22-Sep-2018 13:27

If you have excess solar energy, you have zero percent efficiency if you don't store it.

Obviously with a wind turbine, if the batteries are full, you could change the pitch to slow it down, and save a little wear and tear.

Nothing conventional can compensate for the loss of power faster than Tesla’s Powerpacks, except possibly other manufacturers battery powerpacks. Certainly not a mechanical generator of any kind.

https://electrek.co/2018/05/11/tesla-giant-battery-australia-reduced-grid-service-cost/

"Tesla’s giant battery in Australia reduced grid service cost by 90%"

Tesla’s giant Powerpack battery in Australia has been in operation for about 6 months now and we are just starting to discover the magnitude of its impact on the local energy market.

A new report now shows that it reduced the cost of the grid service that it performs by 90% and it has already taken a majority share of the market.
When an issue happens or maintenance is required on the power grid in Australia, the Energy Market Operator calls for FCAS (frequency control and ancillary services) which consists of large and costly gas generators and steam turbines kicking in to compensate for the loss of power.

Electricity rates can be seen reaching $14,000 per MW during those FCAS periods.

Tesla’s 100MW/129MWh Powerpack project in South Australia can provide the same service cheaper, quicker, and with zero-emissions, through its battery system.

It is so efficient that it reportedly should have made around $1 million in just a few days in January, but Tesla complained last month that they are not being paid correctly because the system doesn’t account for how fast Tesla’s Powerpacks start discharging their power into the grid.

The system is basically a victim of its own efficiency, which the Australian Energy Market Operator confirmed is much more rapid, accurate and valuable than a conventional steam turbine in a report published last month.

Now McKinsey and Co partner Godart van Gendt presented new data at the Australian Energy Week conference in Melbourne this week and claimed that Tesla’s battery has now taken over 55% of the FCAS services and reduced cost by 90%.

van Gendt said (via Reneweconomy):

“In the first four months of operations of the Hornsdale Power Reserve (the official name of the Tesla big battery, owned and operated by Neoen), the frequency ancillary services prices went down by 90 per cent, so that’s 9-0 per cent. And the 100MW battery has achieved over 55 per cent of the FCAS revenues in South Australia. So it’s 2 per cent of the capacity in South Australia achieving 55 per cent of the revenues in South Australia.”

South Australia is reportedly the only state that has seen a decline in FCAS costs over the period. Some estimates put the savings at over $30 million in just a few months.

Tesla Energy’s regional manager of business development Lara Olsen was also at the conference and she explained that thermal plants are bidding on FCAS based on their fuel costs, which are volatile, while Tesla is charging its batteries from wind power at a stable and cheap price.

The success of the project in Australia has led to a lot more demand for Tesla’s stationary energy storage products.

PolicyGuy

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#2094956 22-Sep-2018 14:39

These batteries have saved the bacon of the East Australian grid on more than one occasion, by being able to switch in almost instantaneously when a major generator fell off load unplanned, holding up voltage and frequency while a conventional generator spins up, othewise there would have been load shedding or frequency instability. That's what "FCAS" means in practice.

Strangely enough, I don't remember this as being a major part of the original justification for the putting the battery unit into service

Clawhammer

36 posts

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#2094965 22-Sep-2018 15:22

It seems that if a battery can cause such a dramatic difference to grid reliability this tells me how deep in the brown and sticky the system had sunk. $14,000 per Mwhr supports that and the generators have well and truly worked out how to exploit the defficiencies and pay for a few more BMWs or Audis.

kingdragonfly

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#2095001 22-Sep-2018 18:11

PolicyGuy: These batteries have saved the bacon of the East Australian grid on more than one occasion, by being able to switch in almost instantaneously when a major generator fell off load unplanned, holding up voltage and frequency while a conventional generator spins up, othewise there would have been load shedding or frequency instability. That's what "FCAS" means in practice.

Strangely enough, I don't remember this as being a major part of the original justification for the putting the battery unit into service

You are correct. It was a pleasant surprise for everyone. Even Tesla was caught off-guard by better than expected results.

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kingdragonfly

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#2096514 26-Sep-2018 07:57

This promise and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee...

http://autotalk.co.nz/news/decent-ev-incentives-coming-minister

"Decent” EV incentives coming – minister Geoff Dobson
September 24, 2018

by James Shaw

Incentives to buy electric vehicles will be coming from the Government shortly.

That’s according to climate change minister James Shaw who says EV incentives are being worked on.

'What we’re trying to do is get a package that incentivises your middle-class people to be able to do that, but also ensures that low income families aren’t left behind,' he told The AM Show.

New Zealand has 10,000 EVs compared to 210 five years ago, so there is an 'exponential growth rate', Shaw says. However, it’s still only 0.25% of the four million vehicles on the roads, he adds.

Prime minister Jacinda Ardern is the keynote speaker at United Nations Climate Week in New York this week where she will promote New Zealand’s initiatives around curbing climate change.

Shaw says she will discuss how 'countries dragging the chain need to get their act together'.

Even New Zealand’s carbon dioxide emissions are increasing, according to the Ministry for the Environment, with the country unlikely to meet its 2030 and 2050 targets.

“New Zealand’s emissions have been going up rather than down, and like every other country in the world, we’ve got to bend the curve, and the next 10 years is going to be critical,” Shaw says.

One measure the Government is considering is the Productivity Commission’s recommendation for a 'feebate' scheme which would place a fee on high emission vehicles while lower emission vehicles like EVs would receive a rebate."

tdgeek

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#2096527 26-Sep-2018 08:22

TLD:

I thought this was pretty clever. Charge up your electric vehicle when unit costs are lowest, and feed it back during peak times. Quite how this would fit with actually driving the car, or least ways, have any power left in the battery to go anywhere after discharging it to reheat the house water after certain family member has spent 45 minutes in the shower, I have no idea, but it is a cool idea. There is a YouTube channel that features a guy obsessed with Tesla. He buys wrecks and takes them to pieces, which you'd think might be a way to get cheap storage capability, but even a near written of Tesla apparently still carries a significant price tag. Perhaps there's be some battery bargains to be had when Elon Musk finally drives his company into the ground.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-manchester-45516816/salford-scientists-show-how-cars-could-power-your-home

I looked into that a while back. Car batteries aren't designed for that type of use, they would degrade faster. They are designed to be charged and driven and charged and driven. I assume taking power off the car for the house or grid isnt compatible with its charge/use design

Pity, as if you have an EV and a house battery, plenty of flexibility there to use solar and offpeak rates, and reduce peak draw for the grid

Clawhammer

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#2096529 26-Sep-2018 08:31

kingdragonfly: This promise and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee...

http://autotalk.co.nz/news/decent-ev-incentives-coming-minister

"Decent” EV incentives coming – minister Geoff Dobson
September 24, 2018

by James Shaw

Incentives to buy electric vehicles will be coming from the Government shortly.

That’s according to climate change minister James Shaw who says EV incentives are being worked on.

'What we’re trying to do is get a package that incentivises your middle-class people to be able to do that, but also ensures that low income families aren’t left behind,' he told The AM Show.

New Zealand has 10,000 EVs compared to 210 five years ago, so there is an 'exponential growth rate', Shaw says. However, it’s still only 0.25% of the four million vehicles on the roads, he adds.

Prime minister Jacinda Ardern is the keynote speaker at United Nations Climate Week in New York this week where she will promote New Zealand’s initiatives around curbing climate change.

Shaw says she will discuss how 'countries dragging the chain need to get their act together'.

Even New Zealand’s carbon dioxide emissions are increasing, according to the Ministry for the Environment, with the country unlikely to meet its 2030 and 2050 targets.

“New Zealand’s emissions have been going up rather than down, and like every other country in the world, we’ve got to bend the curve, and the next 10 years is going to be critical,” Shaw says.

One measure the Government is considering is the Productivity Commission’s recommendation for a 'feebate' scheme which would place a fee on high emission vehicles while lower emission vehicles like EVs would receive a rebate."

i

10,000 EVs on the road, I would be interested to know how many are pure Electric and how many are Hybrids. With their relatively small batteries, while good for a trip to the shops or the school run I suspect that much Hybrid mileage is done on their engines I.e. not quite so "clean".

SaltyNZ

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#2096531 26-Sep-2018 08:35

That info is on the Ministry site. The majority are pure battery EVs.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

tdgeek

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#2096535 26-Sep-2018 08:49

Clawhammer: With their relatively small batteries, while good for a trip to the shops or the school run I suspect that much Hybrid mileage is done on their engines I.e. not quite so "clean".

And the ICE is less efficient as it has to carry the EV engine and batteries, and vice versa. Ive always thought of hybrids as a nice idea in principle but a failure

SaltyNZ

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#2096537 26-Sep-2018 08:52

Even in principle it's almost the worst of both worlds. The disadvantages of a small battery, which still degrades like a pure battery EV, plus the disadvantages of still needing all the regular care and feeding of an internal combustion engine. And for the Prius-type hybrids, a mechanically much more complex transmission as well.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

wellygary

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#2096598 26-Sep-2018 09:46

Clawhammer:

10,000 EVs on the road, I would be interested to know how many are pure Electric and how many are Hybrids.

~75% are full BEVs, ~25% are Phevs... and ~50% are second hand leafs... there are currently just under 5000 of them registered...

tripper1000

1617 posts

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#2096812 26-Sep-2018 13:56

SaltyNZ: Even in principle it's almost the worst of both worlds. The disadvantages of a small battery, which still degrades like a pure battery EV, plus the disadvantages of still needing all the regular care and feeding of an internal combustion engine. And for the Prius-type hybrids, a mechanically much more complex transmission as well.

Boy, you guys are from the "Glass half empty" camp. Hybrid is the 'best' of both worlds (sort of). At the end of the day, they save petrol by improving ICE efficiency, which is all they were conceived to do in the first place.

Hybrid is interim, crossover technology that won't be around for long. Good for people who want to make a positive step but aren't ready to fully take the plunge. In hybrids, slowly the batteries are getting bigger, the ICE smaller and BEV nay-sayers like Toyota are making them plug-in. Eventually the batteries will be huge and the ICE disappear altogether and people will have been eased in BEV technology by stealth.

The latest generations of CSV transmission are effectively a hybrid transmission with no battery - it really is on best way to keep an ICE running at its least uneconomical speed. You didn't seriously think these new cars with 8 speed gearboxes actually have 8 gears did you?

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