UK prime minister Boris Johnson

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#2310527 4-Sep-2019 11:04

SJB:... - they seem to have conveniently forgotten about the result of the democratic vote 3 years ago. And it is irrelevant why people voted the way they did.

...

Is it though?

It seems to me that many, many voters were uninformed, misinformed (that's democracy for you) and arguably even lied to by Farage and Johnson.

I'd speculate that a lot of leave voters did so out of sentiment against the (perceived) impact that the freedom of movement rules have on the UK.

Now that it's a lot clearer what the other ramifications of leaving the EU are a number of those who voted leave may well change their mind.

Now that everyone knows more, why not have another referendum?

Sometimes I use big words I don't always fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

kingdragonfly

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#2310528 4-Sep-2019 11:06

Maybe Boris should buy a bolthole in New Zealand.

If he's already secretly bought one here, maybe it's time to get it ready for moving day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/billionaires-bolthole-new-zealand-preppers-paradise

elpenguino

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#2310555 4-Sep-2019 11:47

SJB:

And they are supporting the largest undemocratic political organization in the world. Anyone remember the elections for the EU President or Commisioners? No? That's because there aren't any.

I don't have time for a full reply but calling the EU undemocratic is BS, pardon my french.

NZ's governor general, the nominal head of state and figurehead leader, is not elected but does that stop NZ being democratic? No it doesn't.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2310566 4-Sep-2019 12:03

kingdragonfly: Maybe Boris should buy a bolthole in New Zealand.

The underground concept works in terms of saving the neighbours from having to hear domestic disputes.

But there's no couch for Boris to sleep on, nor bedrooms for mistresses, ex-wives, and unknown number of offspring - should he choose to bring them with him.

SJB

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#2310572 4-Sep-2019 12:20

IMO most voters in the referendum had made up their minds before any campaigning had started. I didn't vote but would have voted leave as I've been anti EU since the Maastrict Agreement was signed in 1992 which basically converted the EU into a political organization without asking too many people if that was OK with them - they already knew what the answer would be at least in the UK.

If brexit doesn't happen one of the downsides is that they will be stuck with the shouty Nigel Farage and his bunch of losers for the foreseeable future with the distinct possibility a fair number of them would be MP's. If that doesn't encourage people to want brexit to happen nothing will.

It's possible that with the advent of social media referendums are not the way to go. But that's easy to say in a country that has middle of the road politics and politicians and few really contentious country wide issues.

SJB

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#2310573 4-Sep-2019 12:23

elpenguino:

SJB:

And they are supporting the largest undemocratic political organization in the world. Anyone remember the elections for the EU President or Commisioners? No? That's because there aren't any.

I don't have time for a full reply but calling the EU undemocratic is BS, pardon my french.

NZ's governor general, the nominal head of state and figurehead leader, is not elected but does that stop NZ being democratic? No it doesn't.

The President and Commissioners wield enormous power and are unelected. The Governor General is a figure head only and has no real power. It's like saying the Queen has power - she has none.

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vexxxboy

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#2310576 4-Sep-2019 12:32

SJB:

elpenguino:

SJB:

And they are supporting the largest undemocratic political organization in the world. Anyone remember the elections for the EU President or Commisioners? No? That's because there aren't any.

I don't have time for a full reply but calling the EU undemocratic is BS, pardon my french.

NZ's governor general, the nominal head of state and figurehead leader, is not elected but does that stop NZ being democratic? No it doesn't.

The President and Commissioners wield enormous power and are unelected. The Governor General is a figure head only and has no real power. It's like saying the Queen has power - she has none.

she has lots of power she just never uses them

Common sense is not as common as you think.

elpenguino

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#2310578 4-Sep-2019 12:42

SJB:

elpenguino:

SJB:

And they are supporting the largest undemocratic political organization in the world. Anyone remember the elections for the EU President or Commisioners? No? That's because there aren't any.

I don't have time for a full reply but calling the EU undemocratic is BS, pardon my french.

NZ's governor general, the nominal head of state and figurehead leader, is not elected but does that stop NZ being democratic? No it doesn't.

The President and Commissioners wield enormous power and are unelected.

We agree the EU president is unelected so you don't have to get so excited about that.

What's in discussion is why, as you say. all of Europe's democracies would agree to submit to an undemocratic organisation. You also say the EU president wields enormous power. Tell us about these executive powers the EU president can wield as he or she sees fit.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

SJB

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#2310586 4-Sep-2019 13:11

elpenguino:

We agree the EU president is unelected so you don't have to get so excited about that.

What's in discussion is why, as you say. all of Europe's democracies would agree to submit to an undemocratic organisation. You also say the EU president wields enormous power. Tell us about these executive powers the EU president can wield as he or she sees fit.

Some smaller countries presumably joined for the perceived economic support they would derive (unless times get tough of course and then your shafted), others joined when it was just a trade organization which, if it still was, I would have no problem with.

As to the powers of the President straight from the mouth of the always correct Wikipedia.

The President controls the policy agenda of the Commission for their term and in practice no policy can be proposed without the President's agreement.

The role of the President is to lead the Commission, and give direction to the Commission and the Union as a whole. The treaties state that "the Commission shall work under the political guidance of its President" (Article 219 TEC), this is conducted through their calling and chairing of meetings of the college of Commissioners, their personal cabinet and the meetings of the heads of each commissioner's cabinet (the Hebdo).The president may also force a Commissioner to resign. The work of the Commission as a body is based on the principle of Cabinet collective responsibility, however in their powers they act as more than a first among equals. The role of the President is similar to that of a national Prime Minister chairing a cabinet

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#2310589 4-Sep-2019 13:16

From today's Washington Post - comments

Q The great question is, will Johnson build a wall between Britain and the EU?

A Only if Europe pays for it. 🙃

Sideface

elpenguino

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#2310614 4-Sep-2019 13:43

SJB:

elpenguino:

We agree the EU president is unelected so you don't have to get so excited about that.

What's in discussion is why, as you say. all of Europe's democracies would agree to submit to an undemocratic organisation. You also say the EU president wields enormous power. Tell us about these executive powers the EU president can wield as he or she sees fit.

Some smaller countries presumably joined for the perceived economic support they would derive (unless times get tough of course and then your shafted), others joined when it was just a trade organization which, if it still was, I would have no problem with.

As to the powers of the President straight from the mouth of the always correct Wikipedia.

The President controls the policy agenda of the Commission for their term and in practice no policy can be proposed without the President's agreement.

The role of the President is to lead the Commission, and give direction to the Commission and the Union as a whole. The treaties state that "the Commission shall work under the political guidance of its President" (Article 219 TEC), this is conducted through their calling and chairing of meetings of the college of Commissioners, their personal cabinet and the meetings of the heads of each commissioner's cabinet (the Hebdo).The president may also force a Commissioner to resign. The work of the Commission as a body is based on the principle of Cabinet collective responsibility, however in their powers they act as more than a first among equals. The role of the President is similar to that of a national Prime Minister chairing a cabinet

Is that the enormous bit?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2310629 4-Sep-2019 14:02

SJB:

Some smaller countries presumably joined for the perceived economic support they would derive (unless times get tough of course and then your shafted), others joined when it was just a trade organization which, if it still was, I would have no problem with.

I lived in Europe most of my life, before emigrating to New Zealand. I happen to come from Holland, a 'smaller' country with one of the better economies. The Dutch have always been strong supporters of the European Union. It certainly has nothing to do with any perceived economic support, since they have been one of the main contributors and are perfectly capable of getting along fine on their own. But having endured two world wars on the Continent, they feel, as do many other EU member states, that being part of a larger community with shared values is an important protection against another descent into madness.

Having lived there for so many years, I never had a sense that my democratic rights were being eroded by our EU membership. This is mostly populist BS and it seems to be mainly an obsession of the island-dwelling British with their inward-looking backward-longing notions of sovereignty and empire.

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#2310644 4-Sep-2019 14:19

Rikkitic:

... it seems to be mainly an obsession of some of the island-dwelling British with their inward-looking backward-longing notions of sovereignty and empire.

Agree for the most part, but would make a slight tweak as per above to be fair to those British who don't feel that way, because I'm sure there are many.

Sometimes I use big words I don't always fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

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#2310716 4-Sep-2019 16:50

floydbloke:

Rikkitic:

... it seems to be mainly an obsession of some of the island-dwelling British with their inward-looking backward-longing notions of sovereignty and empire.

Agree for the most part, but would make a slight tweak as per above to be fair to those British who don't feel that way, because I'm sure there are many.

This really is the problem with Brexit. The leave camp that postulated that Brexit would only be positive and the EU would just roll over can not deliver what they promised. Britain is a large economy but by no means the biggest in Europe - they need Europe far more than Europe needs them. Britain can not dominate the EU as they are the junior partner. The delusions of Empire make that hard for some British people to understand that.

elpenguino

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#2310733 4-Sep-2019 17:14

Handle9:

floydbloke:

Rikkitic:

... it seems to be mainly an obsession of some of the island-dwelling British with their inward-looking backward-longing notions of sovereignty and empire.

Agree for the most part, but would make a slight tweak as per above to be fair to those British who don't feel that way, because I'm sure there are many.

The delusions of Empire make that hard for some British people to understand that.

This really sums up the mindset of the English. The English are trained to remember historic times and the good things that happened long ago ( and of course ignore, the not so good things their empire did)

From filling their museums with valuables looted from other countries to hooligans chanting 2 world wars and one world cup.

I noted when living there in the 90s that there were new docos about WWII on telly once a week. "We plucky brits stood up to adolf and won the war and returned europe to freedom". Which is/was a good thing but do we need to reminded about it once a week? i guess we do.

It's a shame those high and mighty principles are quickly forgotten when there are arms to be sold to 3rd world dictators.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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