4 km/hr speed tolerance 2015

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › 4 km/hr speed tolerance 2015

1 | ... | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | ... | 24

Hmm, what to write...
1424 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1444573 9-Dec-2015 15:15

shk292: It doesn't happen much here, but the unnecessary use of rear fog lights (note, they're "fog" lights, not drizzle, light mist or "dark" lights) is a constant irritation in the UK. You're following someone at a safe, constant distance with 100m+ visibility and all you can see are these really bright red lights and their reflections of every wet surface.

I see it here a bit with VW Golf drivers. I suspect they have upgraded from a Jap car and have no idea that their rear fog light is on...or that they even have a rear fog light. (and yes they are painfully bright)

The front ones on a golf are also bright enough that when they follow me on a wet road my mirror dims.

Matthew

Batman

Mad Scientist
29766 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1444583 9-Dec-2015 15:48

mdooher:
jarledb:
joker97: Why do cars come with "driving lights" with switches separate from the dipped/high beams when it's illegal? Obviously it's not illegal if they come with a $20,000-$250,000 car? And what more when they're called "driving lights" as opposed to "illegal when driving lights"

Anyway, i bet "dRiving lights" is nowhere near as bad as SUVs' normal dipped HID lights. I can't see a thing when one of those things come at me at night.

I don't think anyone here has suggested driving lights are illegal. But some people seem to think that their fog lights are driving lights. They are NOT, and do not distribute the light in the same way.

The two types of lights in question are "Daylight Running lights" (must turn off when headlights are turned on) legal and non dazzling.
and "Fog lights" (lights that continue to operate when headlights are on) Illegal to use unless it is foggy.
"Driving lights" usually means an auxiliary set of high beams.(must not be able to be turned on when headlights are on dip)

Ah it appears I have misunderstood the definitions of the different types of lights! (I thought the round things at the bottom front skirtings were "driving lights")

I then checked the manufacturers' definition by looking at their cars with the round lights at the bottom body skirt.
Some call them DRLs and some call them Fog lights.

hangon

397 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1444594 9-Dec-2015 16:04

Ah it appears I have misunderstood the definitions of the different types of lights! (I thought the round things at the bottom front skirtings were "driving lights")

I then checked the manufacturers' definition by looking at their cars with the round lights at the bottom body skirt.
Some call them DRLs and some call them Fog lights.

my last car's fog light were over sized and looks like "driving lights", and the sales told me "just leave them on".

when I looked at the switch, it's clearly "fog lights".

photo for illustration purpose:

mdooher

Hmm, what to write...
1424 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1444598 9-Dec-2015 16:10

hangon:

Ah it appears I have misunderstood the definitions of the different types of lights! (I thought the round things at the bottom front skirtings were "driving lights")

I then checked the manufacturers' definition by looking at their cars with the round lights at the bottom body skirt.
Some call them DRLs and some call them Fog lights.

my last car's fog light were over sized and looks like "driving lights", and the sales told me "just leave them on".

when I looked at the switch, it's clearly "fog lights".

photo for illustration purpose:

Yep that is the symbol for front fog lights and this symbol is for daylight running lights

Matthew

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1446937 10-Dec-2015 09:29

mdooher: 10.2 Fitting and performance requirements for fog lamps
10.2(1) The light emitted from a front fog lamp must be substantially white or amber.
10.2(2) The light emitted from a rear fog lamp must be diffuse and substantially red in colour.
10.2(3) A front fog lamp fitted to a motor vehicle must not be positioned higher than a dipped-beam headlamp fitted to the vehicle.

10.3 Fitting and performance requirements for daytime running lamps
10.3(1) When operated, a daytime running lamp must emit light that is substantially white or amber.
10.3(2) A daytime running lamp must not operate when a front fog lamp or headlamp is in use.

Also

8.4Use of optional lights

(1) A driver may use a fog lamp only in conditions of severely reduced visibility, including fog or snow, but not under clear atmospheric conditions even during the hours of darkness.

Pretty simple really

So it seems that there is no difference in the legal definition of a front fog lamp or daytime running lamp, except in the way that they are switched. I *could* wire up an NC relay to open when the headlights are on, and put this in series with the basic on-off fog lamp switch. That would mean that those lights on the front of my car would then legally be daytime running lamps?

mdooher

Hmm, what to write...
1424 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1446943 10-Dec-2015 09:32

frankv:
mdooher: 10.2 Fitting and performance requirements for fog lamps
10.2(1) The light emitted from a front fog lamp must be substantially white or amber.
10.2(2) The light emitted from a rear fog lamp must be diffuse and substantially red in colour.
10.2(3) A front fog lamp fitted to a motor vehicle must not be positioned higher than a dipped-beam headlamp fitted to the vehicle.

10.3 Fitting and performance requirements for daytime running lamps
10.3(1) When operated, a daytime running lamp must emit light that is substantially white or amber.
10.3(2) A daytime running lamp must not operate when a front fog lamp or headlamp is in use.

Also

8.4Use of optional lights

(1) A driver may use a fog lamp only in conditions of severely reduced visibility, including fog or snow, but not under clear atmospheric conditions even during the hours of darkness.

Pretty simple really

So it seems that there is no difference in the legal definition of a front fog lamp or daytime running lamp, except in the way that they are switched. I *could* wire up an NC relay to open when the headlights are on, and put this in series with the basic on-off fog lamp switch. That would mean that those lights on the front of my car would then legally be daytime running lamps?

No, If you look up the full text of Land Transport Rule (Vehicle lighting) it is quite specific on beam angle etc

Matthew

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1446947 10-Dec-2015 09:35

frankv:
mdooher: 10.2 Fitting and performance requirements for fog lamps
10.2(1) The light emitted from a front fog lamp must be substantially white or amber.
10.2(2) The light emitted from a rear fog lamp must be diffuse and substantially red in colour.
10.2(3) A front fog lamp fitted to a motor vehicle must not be positioned higher than a dipped-beam headlamp fitted to the vehicle.

10.3 Fitting and performance requirements for daytime running lamps
10.3(1) When operated, a daytime running lamp must emit light that is substantially white or amber.
10.3(2) A daytime running lamp must not operate when a front fog lamp or headlamp is in use.

Also

8.4Use of optional lights

(1) A driver may use a fog lamp only in conditions of severely reduced visibility, including fog or snow, but not under clear atmospheric conditions even during the hours of darkness.

Pretty simple really

So it seems that there is no difference in the legal definition of a front fog lamp or daytime running lamp, except in the way that they are switched. I *could* wire up an NC relay to open when the headlights are on, and put this in series with the basic on-off fog lamp switch. That would mean that those lights on the front of my car would then legally be daytime running lamps?

Its detailed here...

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/get-your-lights-right/get-your-lights-right/#day

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1447048 10-Dec-2015 11:42

That page just says

When purchasing daytime running lamps, it is your responsibility to ensure they meet approved standards and are designed for that specific purpose.

So I followed their link to http://nzta.thomsonreuters.co.nz/DLEG-NZL-LTSA-T.LTR-32005.pdf

[10.3(3) A motor vehicle of Group L may be fitted with up to four daytime running lamps to the front of the vehicle provided that the sum of the outputs of each lamp, as declared by the lamp manufacturer, does not exceed 2400 candela.]
10.3(4) A motor vehicle of Group M or Group N may be fitted with one pair of daytime running lamps to the front of the vehicle.

I think Group L might be motorcycles, M is cars, N is trucks.

Again, no mention of beam angles. But helpfully, it does list the approved standards:

Daytime running lamps
UN/ECE Regulation No. 87, Uniform provisions concerning the approval of daytime running lamps for power-driven vehicles (E/ECE324-E/ECE/TRANS/505/Rev.1/Add. 86)
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108, Lamps, reflective devices and associated equipment
Australian Design Rule 45, Lighting and light-signalling devices not covered by ECE Regulations.
Australian Design Rule 76, Daytime running lamps

Hard to find what ADR 76/00 is, but it appears it may just refer to UN/ECE Regulation No. 87. Fortunately, that is accessible at https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R087r3e.pdf -- white, 400-1200cd intensity, 25-200cm^2 surface area, minimum angles 10° above and 5° below the horizontal, 20° laterally. Note that there are NO maximum angles specified.

Assuming a 25W incandescent bulb (I'm not actually sure what wattage my fog lights have) gives about 180 lumens. Focussed in a 40degree beam, that would be 500cd.

So, I believe my fog lamps *could* be legally turned into daytime running lamps by wiring them up to turn off when the headlights are on.

mdooher

Hmm, what to write...
1424 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1447067 10-Dec-2015 12:12

frankv: That page just says

When purchasing daytime running lamps, it is your responsibility to ensure they meet approved standards and are designed for that specific purpose.

So I followed their link to http://nzta.thomsonreuters.co.nz/DLEG-NZL-LTSA-T.LTR-32005.pdf

[10.3(3) A motor vehicle of Group L may be fitted with up to four daytime running lamps to the front of the vehicle provided that the sum of the outputs of each lamp, as declared by the lamp manufacturer, does not exceed 2400 candela.]
10.3(4) A motor vehicle of Group M or Group N may be fitted with one pair of daytime running lamps to the front of the vehicle.

I think Group L might be motorcycles, M is cars, N is trucks.

Again, no mention of beam angles. But helpfully, it does list the approved standards:

Daytime running lamps
UN/ECE Regulation No. 87, Uniform provisions concerning the approval of daytime running lamps for power-driven vehicles (E/ECE324-E/ECE/TRANS/505/Rev.1/Add. 86)
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108, Lamps, reflective devices and associated equipment
Australian Design Rule 45, Lighting and light-signalling devices not covered by ECE Regulations.
Australian Design Rule 76, Daytime running lamps

Hard to find what ADR 76/00 is, but it appears it may just refer to UN/ECE Regulation No. 87. Fortunately, that is accessible at https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R087r3e.pdf -- white, 400-1200cd intensity, 25-200cm^2 surface area, minimum angles 10° above and 5° below the horizontal, 20° laterally. Note that there are NO maximum angles specified.

Assuming a 25W incandescent bulb (I'm not actually sure what wattage my fog lights have) gives about 180 lumens. Focussed in a 40degree beam, that would be 500cd.

So, I believe my fog lamps *could* be legally turned into daytime running lamps by wiring them up to turn off when the headlights are on.

You may have missed the bit under Section 3 UN/ECE 87 that says the proposed fitting must be submitted for approval... So if you want to send a sample off and pay the fee...I guess you could
and of course apart from all the palava about indelible markings etc

7. Intensity of light
7.1. The luminous intensity of the light emitted by each lamp shall ....Not exceed 1,200 cd in any direction the lamp is visible.

Your fog lights most certainly will, at least directly in the beam (most are 55W or 100W)

Matthew

mdooher

Hmm, what to write...
1424 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1447076 10-Dec-2015 12:24

Now at least the conversation is of sufficient Geekiness

Matthew

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1447091 10-Dec-2015 12:40

I just looked it up, and my fog light bulbs are specified at 55W. That would be under the 1200cd limit, assuming the beam was 40 degrees wide or more, which it would have to be to meet the minimum beam angle requirements.

Pity about the approval nonsense. But, who knows, maybe ADR 76/00 or one of the other standards just says it has to meet these requirements without the item being approved?

I wonder how car homebuilders get on?

mdooher

Hmm, what to write...
1424 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1447093 10-Dec-2015 12:44

frankv: I just looked it up, and my fog light bulbs are specified at 55W. That would be under the 1200cd limit, assuming the beam was 40 degrees wide or more, which it would have to be to meet the minimum beam angle requirements.

Pity about the approval nonsense. But, who knows, maybe ADR 76/00 or one of the other standards just says it has to meet these requirements without the item being approved?

I wonder how car homebuilders get on?

I guess they just by a preapproved lamp. I suppose those cheap "w..ker" lamps that Super cheap auto and the like sell have an approval number.. or not

Matthew

mdooher

Hmm, what to write...
1424 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1447108 10-Dec-2015 13:02

frankv: I just looked it up, and my fog light bulbs are specified at 55W. That would be under the 1200cd limit, assuming the beam was 40 degrees wide or more, which it would have to be to meet the minimum beam angle requirements.

are you sure about that maths? seems low to me, standard headlamps are 55W halogens (same as fog lights) and are normally far beyond that figure

Matthew

hangon

397 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1447115 10-Dec-2015 13:13

ok I'll try to get discussion back to topic...

I don't like the 4 KM (or 3 KM?) "tolerance", simply put it's too small. my "human" cruise control (right foot) in most time, is good for +/- 10 KM based on speedo, by following vehicles, driving to condition etc.

Even if I intend to drive 50 KM, unless I constantly check the speedo and adjust accordingly, it's quite easy to reach 60 on speedo (good visibility, center barrier, few traffic or just following cars ahead, a down hill etc)

The speedo is in general not accurate, +10 on the speedo usually means the actually speed is +5 or thereabout, unless you have upsized tyres then it'd be dangerously close to +10 or even more than that.

And in normal days that would be OK.

But with the 4K tolerance, it's very easy for average drivers unintentionally to be caught, and I seriously doubt those drivers are the right targets.

And if the 4K tolerance forces people to constantly check speedo, or driver slower to avoid fines, it might cause more harm than good.

What I want to say is, the focus (on road safety) is wrong. Police is targeting the wrong group of people and that's not helping their PR.

Batman

Mad Scientist
29766 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1447209 10-Dec-2015 15:09

hangon: ok I'll try to get discussion back to topic...

I don't like the 4 KM (or 3 KM?) "tolerance", simply put it's too small. my "human" cruise control (right foot) in most time, is good for +/- 10 KM based on speedo, by following vehicles, driving to condition etc.

Even if I intend to drive 50 KM, unless I constantly check the speedo and adjust accordingly, it's quite easy to reach 60 on speedo (good visibility, center barrier, few traffic or just following cars ahead, a down hill etc)

The speedo is in general not accurate, +10 on the speedo usually means the actually speed is +5 or thereabout, unless you have upsized tyres then it'd be dangerously close to +10 or even more than that.

And in normal days that would be OK.

But with the 4K tolerance, it's very easy for average drivers unintentionally to be caught, and I seriously doubt those drivers are the right targets.

And if the 4K tolerance forces people to constantly check speedo, or driver slower to avoid fines, it might cause more harm than good.

What I want to say is, the focus (on road safety) is wrong. Police is targeting the wrong group of people and that's not helping their PR.

They are not trying to get the "4k" people.
They are not trying to get the 80k speed up to 110k at passing lanes people.
They are not trying to get the 120k people.
They are definitely not trying to get the 220k people with their radar detector cum jammer cum garage door remote.

They are slowing down the "10k" people.

1 | ... | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | ... | 24